Katana wielding

[ledded]

Chris's Mensur days were back at Universitaet (in Germany), and Mensur is legal in Germany.

Hmm. I was under the impression, probably mistaken, that the Mensur was outlawed or heavily restricted at least by the late 1970's, causing quite a few fencing fraternities to go 'underground' with their practices with relative success since it wasnt especially enforced. I havent read up on these practices in quite some time though, and I could be entirely mixed up with something else.

Nonetheless, his description of the Mensur that he wrote into one of his magazines is an incredibly good read.

If yo ulook at the manuals

Oh, my comment was not a slight against the rapier in any way, man, more of a "my body type and level of atheletic strength are such that I would most likely hurt myself right now with a rapier than someone else"

Someone with the practice and athleticism needed would be quite an effective and deadly opponent, but that aint me.

Rapiers couldn't cut like a good English short sword could, but they could cut better than a mere "draw cut", if, by "draw cut" you mean gently laying the edge upon an opponent and cheese-slicing away in SCA fashion. The thing is that the cutting technique did change from a straight-on hack to a "hack-plus-draw". This technique was and is also used in dueling sabre from the 19th century, unwards, and one could be killed from a cut with a dueling sabre. Severing an arm through both forearm bones would be quite unlikely, but cutting down to the bone, itself, crippling the arm, could be done with a rapier of proper cross section.

In a way, claiming that rapiers "cannot cut" or are only worth harassing cuts is like claiming that human beings "cannot climb trees" because they are not as agile as are spider monkeys. That being said, I was taught to thrust when I could and cut when I must.

Again, I misspoke in the interest of brevity, and make no claim to a rapier's inability to deliver cuts whatsoever. I wasnt talking about the fromage of the SCA (which doesnt extend to just draw cuts, IMO) but more of the ones I've read/been taught that you described above (hack-plus-draw). I've always read and was taught that a rapier, because of the length and often thicker cross-section, was *sometimes* slower and less reliable for slashing attacks, but they could be done effectively to give someone grievous, but not necessarily instantly fatal, wounds. I have done only limited actual rapier work myself admittedly, but I've seen enough that I know that a properly executed cut with one could easily sever a windpipe, tendons or arteries in the arm or leg, or exposed muscle mass. Within limits imposed by your training/ability and the length/cross-section of the sword, obviously, but could be done.

Duelling sabers, at least the old schlaeger that I own, seemed to me much more well suited to delivering some quick vicious cuts than some of the longer/thicker rapiers I've handled. The couple I have at home almost feel like they've got a fulcrum just above your hand because of how they're weighted , and while much heavier isnt that much slower than my olympic fencing saber (but would obviously tire me out quicker if used the same way). Of course, I never was one of those whippy-fast-I-barely-touched-you saber guys, and that was why I quit foil for saber and epee; I wanted to practice technique, not who had the whippier toy. But hey, that's not a bad thing at all, modern fencing is a *sport*, and while has martial roots and application is not as much about perfecting your swordsmanship as it is winning.

Anyway, I agree with you on the issue of cuts with a rapier; sorry I didnt give a better comment in the first place on it.

Silver's ideal longs word had a blade nearly as short as his short sword, but with a handle that could accomodate two hands. Think of the speed.

Oh yes, I've had that discussion with a few folks before. I saw a 'bastard sword' once that was about the same blade length as a knightly arming sword, just maybe 6 inches or less over what most folks thought was a short swords length, with the handle being long enough for two hands easily and a nice scent-stopper looking pommel. Very quick looking. I think that is one reason, IMO, that the Japanese sword gives the impression of being so fast, because the two-handed grip on a lighter sword that could easily be wielded with one hand gives you all kinds of ability to apply physics and leverage to your technique.

In the old European tradition, any blade-on-blade contact is undesirable, if sometimes necessary. The ideal, as far as I can tell, from the days of the sword-and-buckler men up to the end of the rapier era was a flawless counterattack. The best defense was to disappear from where your opponent attacked. Now, the Germans realized that this was often unrealistic, so they taught a lot of what would be called "counterattacks in opposition" today. Of course, if one counterattacks in opposition with a cut against a cut, that may look like a parry to the uninitiated.

Right, that is what I've gathered also. Even in sword and shield, you had to be careful because an iron shield boss or rim *could* break your extremely valuable sword. In Shinkendo we were taught several blocks that look like you clash your sword against someone's during their swing and immediatly thrust or slash, a "counterattack in opposition" that is very Talhoffer-like to me. In reality, it resembles more of a slightly flat 'beat-attack' like you can find in fencing, accompanied by stepping in with a 'cut-draw' type of slash to the arms or neck (or a thrust, depending on the angle of incoming attack). It does involve the edge, of course, but we were taught to try to avoid *exact* edge to edge contact by barely turning the sword (but not enough to catch a strike all the way across the flat, that too is a very *bad* thing). In reality, that is optimistic thinking when someone is trying to end your life, and edge to edge would happen more often than you would like.

However, at some point between the beginning of time and the 18th century, Europe adopted the edge parry as a preferred method, and I'm going to guess that it was some time in the 16th century, given how Swetnam talks.

I was under the impression that is was late 16th/early 17th, but I'm not sure myself.

It doesnt surprise me however, looking at the propensity for some of the heavier cavalry sabers, wider infantry hangers, and thicker-cross sections in some swords you find 18th century onwards. Looking at some of the later basket-hilts, the back edge gets so thick on some that it looks like not only could they take a good bit of edge to edge without breaking, but if it does dull it, so what, he's still going to crush your collarbone with it or shatter your ankle even if it doesnt have any edge at all left

I've heard this attributed to better metalworking methods, heavier cross-sections, etc while at the same time someone always comes to refute it with another theory. I have my own ideas based on a combination of factors, but suffice it to say that humans don't always go the right direction in warfare historically just because of true efficiency (c'mon... Patton sabers delivering thrusting attacks at a full charge on horseback? That had to hurt the wrist a bit ).

Really though, a lot of edge-to-edge parrying has a lot to do with the design of your sword; most of what I was originally thinking was in a japanese sword mindset, but many other types with less similar design characteristics would most likely be a good bit better suited IMO.

But even as my Sensei taught us that sharp was good, don't ruin your edge, he always left us with this thought: sharp or strong doesnt cut, *technique* cuts. I've seen a 225lb linebacker-looking guy with one of Sensei's freshly sharpened you-could-shave-with-it test-cutting swords get stuck in tatami mats and almost knock over the stand with brute force, and then the 98 lb girl behind him with her own sword that hasnt been sharpened in over a year gets up and cuts like a hot wire through butter.

 

[barsoomcore]

One of my favorite maneuvers that we learned is where you make a quick kesa-giri or overhead strike, drawing an upwards block from your opponent, but as soon as you start to make contact you quickly pull your sword down and in towards you and deliver a vicious thrust with the tip, all in one movement.

There's another move that's quite common in Katori where you make a torii block (the blade horizontal above the head with the left hand supporting the back of the blade), and then quickly thrust forward with the right hand, snapping your hilt into his face. Very unpleasant, and of course as you get better it ceases to be a block because the best defense of all is to just not be there when his sword arrives.

I thought Uma looked pretty good for the most part. She's no Mifune, but okay, she's no Mifune.

I just spent 20 minutes on google until I found pics to illustrate the moves.

Your Google-fu is strong.

For the curious, the first picture shows the last step of most kata -- the end of the noto, as the sword returns to the sheath. This is why the hand is reversed -- he's putting it back into the sheath as opposed to drawing it. The second picture is the chibburi of uke-nagashi -- the third kata of the ZNKF seitei-gata. The swordsman has just flipped his right hand on the grip and his next action will be to drop the tip and let it swing down past his left leg so that the back of the blade comes to rest on his left hand at the mouth of the sheath, ready for the noto.

I've seen a 225lb linebacker-looking guy with one of Sensei's freshly sharpened you-could-shave-with-it test-cutting swords get stuck in tatami mats and almost knock over the stand with brute force, and then the 98 lb girl behind him with her own sword that hasnt been sharpened in over a year gets up and cuts like a hot wire through butter.

When you come up here, remind me to show you my video of a doddering old fellow who can barely walk pick up his katana and perform four tameshi-giri in a row. One minute he can barely stand, the next he's cutting beautifully. It's a thing to see.

 

[Dogbrain]

Hmm. I was under the impression, probably mistaken, that the Mensur was outlawed or heavily restricted at least by the late 1970's,

It was outlawed--during the Third Reich. The Ratzis hated Mensur and the fraternities. They were prone to accepting anybody as full-fledged members without doing a racial background check.

Oh, my comment was not a slight against the rapier in any way, man, more of a "my body type and level of atheletic strength are such that I would most likely hurt myself right now with a rapier than someone else"

I knew I had forgotten something when I hit the "submit" button. What I meant to say is that if you look at the manuals, you'll see that the practitioners were always portrayed as having arms like Popeye the sailor. That's no exaggeration. You have to do so much with your arm extended or partially extended that the forearms have to do inhuman amounts of work. A good rapier physique is not a natural human physique.

Someone with the practice and athleticism needed would be quite an effective and deadly opponent, but that aint me.

I've always read and was taught that a rapier, because of the length and often thicker cross-section, was *sometimes* slower and less reliable for slashing attacks,

The shape also put the center of percussion further back from the point than for a cutting sword, so you sacrifice even more distance to cut than with a cutting sword.

but suffice it to say that humans don't always go the right direction in warfare historically just because of true efficiency (c'mon... Patton sabers delivering thrusting attacks at a full charge on horseback? That had to hurt the wrist a bit[/QUOTE]

Patton's sabre was never used in combat. However, the British sabre that it was based on was used in combat. It had a bad habit of burying itself to the hilt in the first enemy you hit on the charge, becoming quite impossible to use.

 

[Darklone]

Some historic examples of weapons: Viking "broadsword": 800 gr. Not that much more than your olympic fencing wire
Italian Greatsword (museum in Milano IIRC), length 1.60 m: Weight 1.5 kg. No chance to get around that thingy with a fencing wire... my favorite example if someone tells me that a guy with two daggers can hop in circles around a greatsword wielder. I tried that stunt once. Against a bloody beginner with the greatsword. He nearly scored the first hit.

Weeee, parry edge on edge... There are huge discussions in German swordfighting forums about that. We got two parties, the edgehackers and flatparry dudes...

German swordmanship most often show parries performed with the flat side of the blade. Well, that's what the edgehackers don't admit. They use blunt swords with 3mm edges and still break them over the time with their kind of combat.

As a material scientist, I'm often taken aback when people try to explain to me that a sword will rather break if I parry with the flat side instead of the "hard" edge. Typical for modern times, you can't convince people with science.

In our group, we always try to parry with the flat side, similar to some Japanese kendo styles where some of our guys started. Sure, sometimes it's your last chance to block at all with the edge... that's usually when the whole group goes "Eeks, there goes on good blade..."

Edit: Barsoomcore: Sure, katana is slightly curved and has only one edge... but still the cutting technique and handling is nearly identical. There are some not often used moves for the backhand cuts, but these are mainly for experts. Some so called "swordmaster parries" take advantage of the straight blade by catching the opponents blade in mid-air softly without much pressure... I bet you know them. These maneuvers are more easy with a straight blade. Proper cuts (especially if you had to penetrate armour) are more easy with a curved blade. There are reasons after all why both types of blades were used

 

[Plane Sailing]

Apparently they made the "old ones" out of meterorite iron smelted with stupidium.

Beautiful expression!

 

[ledded]

I knew I had forgotten something when I hit the "submit" button. What I meant to say is that if you look at the manuals, you'll see that the practitioners were always portrayed as having arms like Popeye the sailor. That's no exaggeration. You have to do so much with your arm extended or partially extended that the forearms have to do inhuman amounts of work. A good rapier physique is not a natural human physique.

Oh yes. At one time for a few years, I was practicing Shinkendo twice a week for 3 hours each, saber/epee fencing once for 5 hours and again for 2, and sword and buckler, rapier, and a couple other assorted experiments for 2 hours once a week. My forearms and wrists gained in size/strength considerably, but I also developed a bad case of tendonitis after a while that made me cut back (darn computer's fault). My right forearm especially; there was a noticeable difference in the size between it and the left.

The shape also put the center of percussion further back from the point than for a cutting sword, so you sacrifice even more distance to cut than with a cutting sword.

Yes, very true.

Patton's sabre was never used in combat. However, the British sabre that it was based on was used in combat. It had a bad habit of burying itself to the hilt in the first enemy you hit on the charge, becoming quite impossible to use.

Correct, my reference was alluding to specific examples in the associated manual for the weapon itself, but you are quite correct about the British version. I read one account about a cavalry officer yanking himself off of his horse because he had looped the strap over his wrist so he wouldnt lose the sword, and after making the hit the sword stuck, then *bent* as he rode by and he was, ahem, dismounted. On the ground with an injured wrist and a bent sword is not a place most horsemen would prefer to be.

While sabers of that type could be quite good for use on the ground for duelling purposes, not only do the thrusts become quite impractical from horseback but the center of percussion and lack of edge curvature limit the effectiveness of a good slashing attack from horseback. The 1796 British model that I own must have been truly frightening from horseback; it's a heavy sword with a good amount of curve, on a riding slashing attack it could put a very considerable amount of force with a considerable amount of edge on a target.

 

[ledded]

Some historic examples of weapons: Viking "broadsword": 800 gr. Not that much more than your olympic fencing wire
Italian Greatsword (museum in Milano IIRC), length 1.60 m: Weight 1.5 kg. No chance to get around that thingy with a fencing wire... my favorite example if someone tells me that a guy with two daggers can hop in circles around a greatsword wielder. I tried that stunt once. Against a bloody beginner with the greatsword. He nearly scored the first hit.

Similar to what was dicussed earlier, two hands + good leverage + deceptively light long weapon = guy who will scare the crap out of you with the speed of his weapon. Or if not scare you, then provide the top of your head with some very interesting and unexpected ventilation.

Weeee, parry edge on edge... There are huge discussions in German swordfighting forums about that. We got two parties, the edgehackers and flatparry dudes...

German swordmanship most often show parries performed with the flat side of the blade. Well, that's what the edgehackers don't admit. They use blunt swords with 3mm edges and still break them over the time with their kind of combat.

As a material scientist, I'm often taken aback when people try to explain to me that a sword will rather break if I parry with the flat side instead of the "hard" edge. Typical for modern times, you can't convince people with science.

In our group, we always try to parry with the flat side, similar to some Japanese kendo styles where some of our guys started. Sure, sometimes it's your last chance to block at all with the edge... that's usually when the whole group goes "Eeks, there goes on good blade..."

Yeah, a lot of my earlier comments on this I had japanese swords and my training stuck in my mind. Really, the characteristics of the sword and the angles at which it is being struck will have quite a bit of effect on whether flat vs. edge is better or worse for it (and the type of grip you use on the sword can infuence the effectiveness of either also). Saying that flat or edge parries are better for all swords, IMO, is leaving out way too many variables. Sure, there are even completely flat 'beat' parries in Shinkendo (actually Toyama Ryu is where they came from, I think) where you step into an opponents swing, bat it aside and deliver a close crushing blow to his crown or a forceful draw cut to his neck. Most of the overhead or low parries involve catching it very close to the edge though (but not directly on the cutting edge).

 

[ledded]

<snip>Very unpleasant, and of course as you get better it ceases to be a block because the best defense of all is to just not be there when his sword arrives.

Amen to that. I remember once Obata Sensei, who has a good but dry sense of humor for such a traditional samurai-like man, put it this way.

A student came up to him and asked him what was the best way to block a kesa-giri cut with a japanese sword.

Sensei shrugged his shoulders and replied in his low, broken English: "Hm. Best to not let him hit you. No need for block then."

I thought Uma looked pretty good for the most part. She's no Mifune, but okay, she's no Mifune.

Bah! You were mystified by her eyes and that rear end flouncing about. Horny b*stard.

We'll just agree to disagree on this one. For some reason I think I'm being especially harsh on both of the Kill Bills, but I just couldnt get into them, and I'm normally all into stuff like that.

Speaking of Mifune, I was re-watching Red Sun the other day and just marvelling at how out of place he looked sometimes against some of the other actors when he moved. Great stuff in a western though.

When you come up here, remind me to show you my video of a doddering old fellow who can barely walk pick up his katana and perform four tameshi-giri in a row. One minute he can barely stand, the next he's cutting beautifully. It's a thing to see.

I bet. Check out the shinkendo website www.shinkendo.com sometime for some nice test cutting pictures, and some nice photography of Obata Sensei performing kabutowari (helmet cutting). He was quite the champion of tameshigiri competitions as a young man. I have seen him perform a yoko-giri cut sideways across two seperate green bamboo targets sitting side by side, about a foot apart, each of them almost as thick as my leg. When we cut this bamboo, we actually dulled the chainsaw blade halfway through the second one and had to sharpen it before we continued.