Kerrick's collection of "Why not do this?" rules

[Kerrick]

As I've been working down through the monsters, I've thought of some rules that I've asked myself "Why not do it like this?" I've put off changing them, for the most part, but I want to get some opinions.

Undead use Charisma instead of Con. I actually saw this one on the PF forums and thought it was a good idea. The Cha modifier applies to everything in place of Con - hp, Fort save, Concentration, etc. (Dropped this rule.)

+2 save feats (Great Fort, Lightning Ref, Iron Will) can be taken multiple times. Why not? It would make them actually useful (okay, more useful than now), and eliminate the need for the epic versions.

If you have a Dex penalty, it applies to flat-footed AC too. The thought that you gain AC when you're flat-footed, because you lose the Dex penalty, is just absurd. If you're that clumsy, the penalty should apply all the time. (Duh... they already use this one.)

I'll add more as I think of them, but this is really it for now (well, these and the size bonus thing, but that's in another thread).

 

[ChampionoftheTriad]

Hey Kerrick,

Yeah, I have used Cha in place of Con for undead for quite awhile. More recently, I've thought of using Str instead of Con for mindless undead or maybe corporeal undead, while incorporeal use Cha. Anyway, you got my vote.

In truth though, if you're actually re-examining rules like this, the question is: Why not just USE Con for undead? That is, why not give them all Con scores. If you subscribe to the abstract function of hit points, AND you subcribe to the function of Con mod affecting those hp because of the "toughness" of the creature, then WHY don't the undead use it? It seems to me that the "dash" Con score, while clever and "realistic", is more trouble than its worth. The logic really has no place in such an abstract system.

 

[Kerrick]

Eh... I dunno. Con seems more like a measurement of a creature's life force, and since undead (and constructs) have no life force, it makes sense that they have no Con score. Force of will (or magic, in the case of mindless undead) is what's keeping them "alive", thus Cha makes more sense than Con (and it's why intelligent undead generally have high Cha scores).

 

[ChampionoftheTriad]

Well, like I said, that's what I've been doing all along. In the system the DOES use the "no Con score", it makes excellent sense and "fixes" a bug in the system (i.e.: undead are supposed to be supernaturally tough, yet RAW makes them kinda fragile).

To me though, the whole "logical approach" of the no Con score system, just doesn't hold up in the abstract hp system. Frex, undead are not subject to critical hits. But, if you can damage them through violent application of force (with a sword), and at 0 hp they are destroyed, then why can't you get a good hit that does more physical damage to there structure? We allow crits vs. corporeal undead, but not sneak attacks or "precision" damage (those actually target vital living organs and such, but the crit is more a random "you cut deep through the joint, and nearly take its arm off").

 

[StormingMarcus]

Undead use Charisma instead of Con. I actually saw this one on the PF forums and thought it was a good idea. The Cha modifier applies to everything in place of Con - hp, Fort save, Concentration, etc.

Don't like it, from a balance point of view. By this rule, mindless undead will have sucking saves, hps et al, while vampires would simply rule more than now.

+2 save feats (Great Fort, Lightning Ref, Iron Will) can be taken multiple times. Why not? It would make them actually useful (okay, more useful than now), and eliminate the need for the epic versions.

Why don't make all saves 1/2 level, and each class gains a +2 at one save at level one? It's a great bump-up in power, but it's also a good streamlining.

If you have a Dex penalty, it applies to flat-footed AC too. The thought that you gain AC when you're flat-footed, because you lose the Dex penalty, is just absurd. If you're that clumsy, the penalty should apply all the time.

I've always read the rule that way... Flat-footed people don't add their Dex bonus. Penalties always apply, as far as i know.

 

[Kerrick]

Well, like I said, that's what I've been doing all along. In the system the DOES use the "no Con score", it makes excellent sense and "fixes" a bug in the system (i.e.: undead are supposed to be supernaturally tough, yet RAW makes them kinda fragile).

Fragile how? They've got d12 HD, are immune to sneaks/crits/anything that affects living beings, and most other Fort-based effects. The only downside I'm seeing is the lack of extra hp from Con.

To me though, the whole "logical approach" of the no Con score system, just doesn't hold up in the abstract hp system. Frex, undead are not subject to critical hits. But, if you can damage them through violent application of force (with a sword), and at 0 hp they are destroyed, then why can't you get a good hit that does more physical damage to there structure? We allow crits vs. corporeal undead, but not sneak attacks or "precision" damage (those actually target vital living organs and such, but the crit is more a random "you cut deep through the joint, and nearly take its arm off").

Yeah, I ditched the no-crits/sneaks too (for all monsters, not just undead); instead, they have lesser resistance, which reduces crits by x2 and sneaks deal 1/3 damage

Don't like it, from a balance point of view. By this rule, mindless undead will have sucking saves, hps et al, while vampires would simply rule more than now.

Yeah, after some thought and looking at the undead stats, I decided to drop it. They don't need a high Fort save, and they get d12 hp, which makes up for the lack of a Con bonus.

Why don't make all saves 1/2 level, and each class gains a +2 at one save at level one? It's a great bump-up in power, but it's also a good streamlining.

No, I don't like having all saves the same.

I've always read the rule that way... Flat-footed people don't add their Dex bonus. Penalties always apply, as far as i know.

You know, I think you're right. I looked at golems (all of which have Dex penalties) and their flat-footed includes the penalty.

 

[Sylrae]

I was looking at your ranger revision.. It seems to get the monster knowledge ability of the Archivist. Is it the same ability? did you just coincidentally come up with the same thing?

 

[Kerrick]

Parallel development. I've never seen the Archivist.

 

[Sylrae]

ah. well, i need to come up with a different ranger, cause that makes our ranger player and archivist get incredibly similar abilities, and thats not quite what I'm going for.

the archivist is in heroes of horror btw. Its a divine caster who casts spells like a wizard. They dont get their spells from a god directly, they copy them into a prayerbook from divine scrolls or tablets or what have you.

 

[jmucchiello]

+2 save feats (Great Fort, Lightning Ref, Iron Will) can be taken multiple times. Why not? It would make them actually useful (okay, more useful than now), and eliminate the need for the epic versions.

Why not make it turn a bad save to a good save and have no other use? Solves the "these feats suck" problem and avoids inflated saving throws.

This assumes you use some kind of uniform saving throw format, i.e. you can't get the +2 1st level kicker more than once.