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Killed lately?

Bryan898

First Post
I was rather intrigued by this topic, and actually pulled out some of my old books to look over the differences. I only played 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5, so I can't comment on 1st edition.

Hit points were much lower in 2nd edition. After 9th level they barely increased at all. In 2nd edition if that ogre hit you for 14 damage, or that magic missile for 20, your 14th level fighter felt it (average HP for a 16 Con 14th level fighter is 84). Now your average 14th level fighter would shrug that off (average HP 3.5 is 124). Note that in 2nd edition only a warrior class was entitled to a con bonus of +3 or higher, so with other classes the Hit Point comparison is skewed a bit more.

The introduction of abilities like Evasion and Mettle make damaging spells possibly less potent in 3.5. Used to be a fireball was always going to hurt.

It's easier to get ahold of items or abilities that give you resistances to energy damage, criticals, sneak attacks, or spell resistance.

There were more spells without saves and save-or-die spells. Example: Sleep- no save in 2nd, as of 3.0 Will negates. Death spell, a no save instant kill for creatures 8 HD or under in 2nd, now gone. Disintegrate was a save or die in 2nd and 3.0, now its save or take lots of damage. Harm was basically an almost instant kill, now it deals damage. Otto's Irresistable Dance used to make it impossible to make a Ref save, now its a -10 modifier. Symbols didn't use to have saves. Energy drain and level loss was permanent without a save. Imprisonment didn't have a save. Hold Person now allows a new save every round. Creeping doom is no longer an instant kill, as of 3.5 it summons swarms, rather weak IMO. The Holy Word type of spells definetely became much stronger in 3.X, being based off of your CL instead of the targets HD. Stoneskin instantly blocked attacks for 1d4+2/level attacks, and you may think that it weaker because it protected for less attacks, but let's remember in 2nd you only got about 1/2 as many attacks as now. Same with mirror image. Haste was a must have, as it was in 3.0, but unlike 3.0 it AGED you, which is a heck of an incentive to not abuse it.

More importantly than the change to spells is the change to saving throws. In 2nd edition the best save you are going to get was a base for your level. The 20th level fighter got a 6 for save vs spells, and there was nothing you could do about it. The spell destruction gives a -4 to your save, so a 20th level fighter hit by a destruction has a 50& chance of dying. Now you can increase your saves in all manners of ways, feats, items, multiclassing, abilities, etc.

Ever compare the poisons of 2nd edition to 3.X? Notice that they got rid of the poisons that were die or take 20 damage? I remember in the old days someone decided to put that on his dual short swords... ouch. Now you have saves like 2d6 Con/ Death. So to die not only does the target have to fail two saves, but he has to not nuetralize poison before the secondary effect comes. Which yes in combat that's hard sometimes, but if used on a trap somewhat easier to do.

Now there's also all these synergy bonuses and such. You can easily build a fighter that does 15-20 damage a hit, just look at some of the damage builds over on wizard's Character Optimization board. I remember when I thought my character was a god because he did at least 10 points of damage an attack in 2nd edition. Now I can get at least 15 damage an attack, get twice as many attacks, and crit four times as often.

Creatures used to be immune to weapons of +X or lower. It made it all but impossible to tackle certain creatures without being a certain level. It also made you completely reliant on your items. Now you can avoid DR with align weapon and such, or do more damage than they have (hard I know).

Now then, all that being said, I think the earlier editions were less PC friendly. I still like 3.5 better than any other edition I've played, and like the changes. I also think that how deadly the game is sits completely on the DM's shoulders, but the system is built to be more PC friendly in 3.5.
 
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iwatt

First Post
the amount of deaths in my game has decreased. But I think it's less an artifact of edition change than the fact that we don't have enough time to play now (damn thing growing up and getting responsible ;) ) so I try to avoid TPKs that mean I have to have to "lose" a whole game session doing character creation.
 

Amal Shukup

First Post
Tis a bit contradictory... Overall, I think 3rd Edition is a bit more lethal overall, but there are wrinkles...

1. In 1st/2nd Edition I killed (as a DM) or was killed as a Player all the time - at low levels. Much more rarely at mid/High levels. I think this was representative of the investment players/DMs had to make to get a campaign up to mid/high levels - once there, I think we were very reluctant to kill off PCs and have to start over...

One-off high level games - notably a couple of runs at Tomb of Horrors (shudder) - were very, very lethal. But I think that's due to the nature of those one offs (or 'kill fests' as we called them...). Mind you, I'm building a 3rd Edition 'dungeon' that will hopefully be just as lethal: I plan to have each player start play with a stack of characters, and I expect to see a PC death every 15 minutes on average... :)

2. In 3rd Edition, low level is STILL Incredibly lethal. Any CR 1/2 Orc with his Great Axe can drop any 1st level character on any given sunday. Moreover, because death just 'isn't as bad' at higher levels (new characters have lots of neat options to try, leveling is downright brisk), I think this lethality continues into the mid/high levels. And of course, at higher levels, the 'get out of death cheap' Magic becomes fairly accessible.

3. 3rd Edition really helps DMs make much more 'balanced' encounters - and thus avoid having to script the PCs miraculous survival DESPITE having 'rolled' that there were sixteen two-headed trolls and their pet Basilisk in dungeon room 52b... While this should theoretically REDUCE character deaths, I think that more DMs take advantage of this balance by just letting dice 'fall where they may' - or even roll in the open (which I NEVER did pre 3rd Edition) - and actually kill more characters...

4. 3rd Edition very obviously skews to the Offensive side of the equation: Pretty much any character (given initiative and a lucky roll or two) can 'kill' themselves (a duplicate NPC) in very few rounds. Or vice versa.

5. However, what REALLY impacts the character death rate nowadays is the (optional) Action Point mechanic. SO much easier to make that critical save, stabilize, or drop the incredibly lethal opponent first... As a DM, I love 'em because they help avoid the cruddy 'non-heroic' deaths like pathetically bleeding out on the battlefield, or a failng their save vs some random spell that really shouldn't wipe the PC out but does 'cause the Player rolled a 3 rather than the 4 they needed...

A'Mal
 

Mercule

Adventurer
dungeon blaster said:
3) There was no CR system so a DM was forced to rely on his/her experience to know what encounters were too deadly.

Unless, of course, the CR system has encouraged DMs to stop going so easy on the PCs.

4) Characters had lower ability scores in general, and even moderately high ability scores didn't give bonuses.

This bears absolutely no resemblance to my experience. I've never played early editions in any group that didn't pretty much assume you had at least one 18, or a slew of 16s. Most people just rolled until they got bonuses in enough stats to make themselves happy, or made up the numbers.

3E's point buy and the lower threshold for bonuses has encouraged significantly lower stats, IME.
 

The_Universe

First Post
loki44 said:
Okay, you're the DM right? So what is this "phenomenon" and why is it out of your control?
yeah - *I'm* the DM that gave the admittedly idiotic PC a chance to take back his action. AIM-54 has managed to avoid lethal damage in almost all cases.

For the most part, the CR system has helped keep me from "accidentally" killing a PC - we've had 3 deaths (and lots of near deaths), all of which were due to just poor rolling/normal probabilities rather than the monsters drastically overpowering the PC's abilities.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I think the downside of CR is that it is now possible and expected to face mid level characters with challenges which are as risky for them as the equivalent CR challenges when they are low level... mid level characters basically face as much risk in combat as they did at lower levels.

In 1e and earlier, by the time you reached 9th-12th level there wasn't all that much which could be as big a threat to you as orcs were at 1st level. Giants were moderately nasty (5d6 damage against your 84 hp? Not nice. Compare that with 3e with 3-4 attacks each doing 2d8+12 or something with power attack and critical hits on top of that... even 134hp doesn't look like much.

Instant kills (poisons, cursed items) have disappeared, I'll admit... but they never saw much use in our games anyway. Spell damage has been dialed right down in comparison. In 1e a tough monster had 48hp and was severely threatened by a 10d6 fireball. Now it probably has 150hp and laughs at it!

Cheers
 

Patman21967

First Post
I got 3 this session. I got the RSoP with invisible Ogre Magi and their Cone of Cold, and later I got the Mystic Theurge with a Prismatic Spray and the Weapons Master with a F.O.D. from the Lich they were going after....

They all managed to get Raised, because they are around level 11...well 10 now....mwahhhhahahahaha
 

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