D&D 5E Killed Me a Lawful Stupid Paladin

[Zardnaar]

Try a different technique.

I think it's a lost cause here. Kept bugging me for a week when I said no Tritons for example.

Doesn't bother me to much. I do have rules and you generally get a warning if you break them.

He got told directly the opponent was an elite guard drawn from our best gladiators.

 

[Zardnaar]

Has the CR system changed so much since 3e? I don't see how CR 5 is an "overwhelming challenge". That seems to be something a 5th-level party could fight, and would be a hard (but not unbeatable) challenge for a single 5th-level PC.

There is no set CR for a gladiator. I'm a fan of Dark Sun, which had lots of important NPC gladiators. These included Neeva (8th-level) and Rikus (15th-level), with the generic being 3rd or 4th level. An elite 5th-level gladiator makes sense.

I am not a fan of lawful stupid paladins but I don't think this was a paladin issue, this was a player issue. I don't think the GM did anything wrong either. They warned the player, the player didn't listen, and the PC died.

The other players warned him as well. I knew what stats I was using as soon as they I described then in formal parade marching off the boat. They also had two battle ogres in chain plus shields.

I was more or less trying to convey overwhelming force. 4/5 players picked up on it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Maybe the player realize that he don’t want to play a paladin in a pirates setup, he just grab the first occasion to make a flashy exit!

Still wants to play.


Happy Pirates was shorthand for no rape, slaving, murder etc which I did cover.

He got more detailed version of session 0 on messenger. I've got I few rules some I specifically covered.

1. I don't care if you get yourself killed. I do care if you get others killed.

2. No PvP.

3. No stealing off other PCs.

4. Don't deliberatly make a weak character. Don't need to be a powergamer but don't deliberatly make crap PC.

5. Don't role play a jerk character. This includes excessive cowardice, anti social loners, and CN jerks.

He did miss the be prompt on timing. Out of combat you get about 5 minutes to RP a situation, in combat you get around a minute.

Last ones mostly about time management if you have ,5 or 6 people at the table it's not fair if you try and hog say half an hour on a side quest espicially if you try and create said side quest.

The rules are guidelines though if you take 10 minutes and everyone else is enjoying it it's fine. Last hour of session this started around 20:15 and took up next half hour.

Maybe he got bored because it was a combat free session and he built a one trick pony. The artificer tends to be the skill monkey, two sorcerer's often do social stuff, the sailor does sailor type stuff.

Last two sessions were combat heavy mostly due to noise levels (30 odd people playing).

 

[aco175]

Luke and the old man enter the evil bar. It looks like a tough crowd. Their familiars try to come in.
Barkeep, "We don't allow those kind in here." The kid and ancient warrior leave half the party outside.
DM, " The ancient warrior goes up to smuggler who you know is has a 1 million gp bounty on the head. Looks like he asking to be smuggled out of the kingdom."
Jasper, "I go up to bar and let the kid brush against me. "
DM, "The kid looks down not meeting you eyes, and said he sorry."
Oofta, " I go up to the kid. Kid Jasper does like you."
DM, "The Kid says sorry so Sorry. "
Oofta, " I do like you either kid."
Jasper, " I have the death penalty in 7 kingdoms."
Dm"The Kid saids I be careful and turns away trying to avoid a fight."
Jasper, "You will be dead! "
DM, "The ancient warrior tells you the kid is not worth it. and offers to buy you a drink. "
Jasper, " I toss the barmaid aside, and grab my hand crossbow. I roll a 12 initiative."
DM. The Ancient warrior draws his magical glowing sword and has a 19 for initiative. Do you still want to attack Jasper?
Jasper, "He just an old man. "
DM. "He has a MAGICAL GLOWING SWORD. DOES not care about the smuggler's bounty, and has initiative. Do you really want to fight?"
Jasper, "Yes."
DM. "Natural 20. Let bring up the critical hit chart. Lose the arm holding the crossbow."
Jasper, "You are a sucky dm."

This sounds like something I seen in a movie or read somewhere. It is easy to blame the DM though, since he has control of everything else in the game. You can only 'suggest' so much.

I'm generally an easy DM to play with and try to give the PCs more than the players may know since I think the PCs in the game would have grown up knowing more and seeing more than I describe. It seems like the OP did try to avoid the fight by making drops the player did not get or care to get. In my home games the other PCs most likely would have joined in somehow, maybe trying to grab him and pull him back or attacking the others. 5th level does have fireball for a reason.

This whole situation would have send the campaign on a side path where the PCS would likely have fled near death and the local city now has guards searching for them to save face with the elves and such. Maybe elven assassins sneak out of the ship to deal with the PCs. Weeks of getting back to the campaign, but it would have been based on the PCs actions.

 

[Zardnaar]

This sounds like something I seen in a movie or read somewhere. It is easy to blame the DM though, since he has control of everything else in the game. You can only 'suggest' so much.

I'm generally an easy DM to play with and try to give the PCs more than the players may know since I think the PCs in the game would have grown up knowing more and seeing more than I describe. It seems like the OP did try to avoid the fight by making drops the player did not get or care to get. In my home games the other PCs most likely would have joined in somehow, maybe trying to grab him and pull him back or attacking the others. 5th level does have fireball for a reason.

This whole situation would have send the campaign on a side path where the PCS would likely have fled near death and the local city now has guards searching for them to save face with the elves and such. Maybe elven assassins sneak out of the ship to deal with the PCs. Weeks of getting back to the campaign, but it would have been based on the PCs actions.

The Elves are heavily outnumbered around 1000-1 in these parts. They usually get others to do the dirty work for them.

PCs only met one elf so far and he's doing his own thing even if it's assumed he is a spy.

Elven armies not actually elves, most if the junior officers aren't elves probably only the senior officers are.

Not a great system as such, it's blown up in their face.

But yeah they'll use assassin's and dirty tricks not a problem. Not nice Tolkein elves here.

 

[Guest User]

@Zardnaar .....thank you for sharing more details.
I still think you could have used the subdual option at zero HP, but given the political details, the fact he was fighting an insectile race, the fact the player set the parameters of the duel, (To The Death), electing to kill the PC, makes more sense.

If my brother showed up to a session, with an "optimized" PAM Paladin, picked a needless solo duel,(despite my no solo Duels, DM policy), disregarded de-escalation attempts including telling him what Stat block to look up on Google, and then he almost succeed in the duel, I would have killed him as well.

The joy in taking the piss out of my brother, would outweigh any regret at not knocking the PC unconscious.

I add this, I think it is clear you did not Bounty DM.
You did take the Piss out of a PC, and that is warranted, sometimes.
Sometimes, you can solo a character level equal CR creature in 5e.
One typically needs high stats and good equipment, but it is possible to solo a 160% Deadly encounter.

My overpowered Fighter at 6th level, solo'd a Drider.
I expected that the DM would slay me if I did not prevail in the duel.
It sounds like so did the player in question.

I take back, my prior misgivings, having learned more details.

Thanks for sharing, Zard!

 

[Zardnaar]

@Zardnaar .....thank you for sharing more details.
I still think you could have used the subdual option at zero HP, but given the political details, the fact he was fighting an insectile race, the fact the player set the parameters of the duel, (To The Death), electing to kill the PC, makes more sense.

If my brother showed up to a session, with an "optimized" PAM Paladin, picked a needless solo duel,(despite my no solo Duels, DM policy), disregarded de-escalation attempts including telling him what Stat block to look up on Google, and then he almost succeed in the duel, I would have killed him as well.

The joy in taking the piss out of my brother, would overweigh any regret at not knocking the PC unconscious.

I add this, I think it is clear you did not Bounty DM.
You did take the Piss out of a PC, and that is warranted, sometimes.
Sometimes, you can solo a character level equal CR creature in 5e.
One typically needs high stats and good equipment, but it is possible to solo a 160% Deadly encounter.

My overpowered Fighter at 6th level, solo'd a Drider.
I expected that the DM would slay me if I did not prevail in the duel.
It sounds like so did the player in question.

I take back, my prior misgivings, having learned more details.

Thanks for sharing, Zard!

He had 20 charisma and Dragonkin race which gets shillelagh as a cantrip.

He wanted to attack another boat on messenger and point blank got told it's suicide. We've got a D&D chat room on messenger.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

Has the CR system changed so much since 3e? I don't see how CR 5 is an "overwhelming challenge". That seems to be something a 5th-level party could fight, and would be a hard (but not unbeatable) challenge for a single 5th-level PC.

There is no set CR for a gladiator. I'm a fan of Dark Sun, which had lots of important NPC gladiators. These included Neeva (8th-level) and Rikus (15th-level), with the generic being 3rd or 4th level. An elite 5th-level gladiator makes sense.

I am not a fan of lawful stupid paladins but I don't think this was a paladin issue, this was a player issue. I don't think the GM did anything wrong either. They warned the player, the player didn't listen, and the PC died.

In 5e, the CR is the challenge for a party - a CR 5 monster is NOT equivalent to a level 5 PC, which I believe was the example given. A CR 5 encounter is designed to be a 'medium' challenge for a party of four. Per D&D Beyond, a CR 5 flesh golem is a deadly encounter for a level 5 PC of any type.

Per D&D Beyond, for example: CR 5 monsters include: air elemental, brontosaurus, cambion, flesh golem, hill giant. Obviously, there are more. A Gladiator NPC is CR 5. And again, it doesn't excuse the bad play from the player, but I find there's a world of difference between a gladiator and a Gladiator. Using the movie Gladiator - clearly all those gladiators were NOT equal levels

Just wanted to add some detail.

 

[Zardnaar]

In 5e, the CR is the challenge for a party - a CR 5 monster is NOT equivalent to a level 5 PC, which I believe was the example given. A CR 5 encounter is designed to be a 'medium' challenge for a party of four. Per D&D Beyond, a CR 5 flesh golem is a deadly encounter for a level 5 PC of any type.

Per D&D Beyond, for example: CR 5 monsters include: air elemental, brontosaurus, cambion, flesh golem, hill giant. Obviously, there are more. A Gladiator NPC is CR 5. And again, it doesn't excuse the bad play from the player, but I find there's a world of difference between a gladiator and a Gladiator. Using the movie Gladiator - clearly all those gladiators were NOT equal levels

Just wanted to add some detail.

This, a 5E deadly encounter often isn't that deadly though. With feats and good ability scores you are also effectively a level higher or so, good equipment as well maybe 2.

Personally I don't use the encounter rules and even if I did if the PCs attacked everything knowing that eventually they will come a cropper.

Instead of 6-8 encounters 4-6 is more typical. Alot of 5E only players groups seem to nova s lot. They're more aggressive than experienced players in that regard I've noticed.

Generally I go for 1 opponent per person of the party plus one usually if CR no higher than half the party level.

My 4 encounters last week for 5 4th level PCs.

6 orcs
3 orcs, orog, tweaked veteren, cr2 spellcaster
2 Warforged knights, 2 veterans
1 Cambion, one priest.

So once CR creeps up past half party level I start reducing numbers.

I might break these guidelines if I'm running less encounters.

I do go with a living world scenario so if the big bad has a CR 12 guardian at his door it's always CR 12 even if the PCs atrack it. That great wrym dragon that is known about is a gonna be the same regardless if when or if the PCs go after it.

They also might be able to deal with it indirectly. Fund a bigger dragon for example.

I do use deception though where appropriate. A red dragon with alter self or whatever may lose as a green dragon. If the PCs can find an account though if a green dragon breathing fire that's a clue.

Conned them good the other night, a street waif got a lot of money out of them but turned out to be a halfling conman.

 

[Guest User]

My 4 encounters last week for 5 4th level PCs.

6 orcs
3 orcs, orog, tweaked veteren, cr2 spellcaster
2 Warforged knights, 2 veterans
1 Cambion, one priest.

Nothing unreasonable there, in fact, that is approximately 6,650 XP of creatures.
The Adventuring Day budget for Five, 4th level characters is 8,500 XP.
You could have thrown in an extra Cambion.

A Deadly encounter for this group, would be 2,000 XP worth of creatures....your highest XP budgeted encounter came in at 2,800 XP...which in my experience, would be fine.

A party with Heat Metal and Charm Magic could blow through some of those encounters. Other parties might struggle. The dice, as always in 5e, matter.

I would say, you eyeballed this Adventuring Day correctly, Zardnaar.
That deserves a cookie! DM's always deserve a beer!