Kingkiller Books

[Dioltach]

I'd like to chip in about the Mary Sue thing: that's pretty much the premise of the book, I think. Kvothe is, as noted above, a legend in his own time. His achievements are so amazing that his tale has taken on a life of its own. So in the books Kvothe goes about setting the record straight. Sure, he's talented, otherwise obviously there wouldn't be any story to tell at all. But he's honest about his cheating, his cowardice, his vindictiveness, his general stupidity at times. He recognises, in hindsight, that he thinks he's better than everyone else because he's cleverer, but still they manage to get the better of him (Ambrose, for example). In the present he tries to use his abilities and fails and needs to be saved by his friends.

On a related note, I assume that the whole Kingkiller bit will come when Ambrose becomes king. Or are there other theories about that?

 

[Salamandyr]

More and more I'm convinced that the only proper definition of a Mary Sue is "a character the reader doesn't like". I've been guilty of it too, having referred to highly popular Harry Dresden as a Mary Sue in the past.

Mary Sue started out as a fan fiction term-Captain Kirk, as omni competent as he is, isn't a Mary Sue; the entire show is written about him. But Yeoman Marley Susan, who upon her appearance on deck, all action stops as each character spends several pages analyzing their feelings about her, Spock offers to teach her chess, she helps Bones diagnose an alien plague, and causes Kirk to swear to give up his philandering ways, and then later dies in spectacularly picturesque fashion, causing profound change in each character as they resolve to be worthy of the moments she graced their lives...that's a Mary Sue.

A Mary Sue is kind of definitionally a secondary character; one for whom the whole universe of the story warps around her (or him...but it's often a her), and the characters that we are supposedly interested in suddenly become secondary characters in a psychodrama about this supposed spear carrier.

But an omni-competent main character in a story about his adventures-the word for that isn't Mary Sue, it's protagonist. The main character of the story is generally going to be the one who does the really awesome things. Let's add that we're hearing our story as a first person tale of someone not overburdened with an abundance of false modesty. However shining through his pride/arrogance is the fact that he is easily manipulated by a serial manipulator, foregoing several more healthy relationships, he regularly sabotages his own good fortune through anger and misjudgement, and most hilarious, he completely misunderstands the purpose and what is important in chemistry (a scene that puts paid to the idea that he's some kind of all encompassing genius). And while he's probably the best generalist; there's generally somebody who is better than him at anything he is good at. Even as a musician, his only accomplishment is the equivalent of pop music.

Compare him to the Fitz of Robin Hobbs' Farseer Trilogy, a character who is obviously quite talented, charismatic, and who accomplishes a lot of really incredible things--but everything he does is presented in the most downbeat fashion as he continually tells you how useless he is and incredible everybody else is. I'm really not sure that's any better. (Not saying the Farseer Trilogy is bad-I highly recommend it; but it is different).

Kvothe isn't even all that unbelievable-read up on the accomplishments of Benjamin Franklin, Isaac Newton, or Leonardo in the real world.

Anyway, I don't know if I will change any minds, but I wrote all this out so I'm gonna post it.

 

[CAFRedblade]

What I like about the series is that it feels different compared to others in the genre in the telling.
When I read the two books I noticed two writing sytles at work, the current timeline in the Inn has one feel, while the replay of Kvothe's story has a much more mechanical feel to it for me.

It was jarring at first, but I got used to and even enjoyed the stylistic differences by the end of book 1.

Yes, Kvothe is a powerful young hero, as many in the genre are, otherwise he wouldn't be the main focus of the story, but I feel that he's had enough failures of character to balance things out.

I'm looking forward to the third book myself, and where things go from there.

And yes, Denna is vexing to the reader, but that's what makes her interesting to Kvothe, and to myself.

 

[Lindeloef]

Just to clarify, cause I was the one that brought this term into this thread, I don't think Kvothe is a full Mary Sue, he shares some attributes. And at least at one point in the story, I wished he was a full mary sue (adem training chapters).

This makes some good points regarding the issue

 

[Salamandyr]

Sidestepping the whole Mary Sue argument for a moment, one thing that Rothfuss does that I really liked is he signals you that perhaps not everything is really the way Kvothe see them. Bast corrects Kvothe early in the story that Denna, while attractive, is not the great beauty the Kvothe sees her as. In fact, it's pointed out that, in Kvothe's telling, every woman he meets is beautiful, implying that the beauty often lies more in his own memory and perception than in reality (I will insist that Fela is exactly as beautiful as described however! I have a crush on Fela). Likewise in the scene where he discusses being kicked out of Chemistry class, because while he loves the mixing of chemicals (the theatre of it), he has no patience for proper notation, scientific method, and repeatable processes. Then he confidently declares he could be a great chemist if only the lesser minds could understand his genius (I'm exaggerating a little); no one gainsays him, the other characters don't understand how wrongheaded he is either.

Anyways, I liked the books a lot. Sure they have their issues--I'm sick of the kinds of cliche the Adem represent, for instance. But even those parts had some humor to let you know that, yes, they were incomparable blowhards, but their (bigoted) delusions didn't match up with the reality of the world either.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I have just finished the Felurian chapters and now really dislike the character.

 

[Nellisir]

More and more I'm convinced that the only proper definition of a Mary Sue is "a character the reader doesn't like".

A Mary Sue is kind of definitionally a secondary character; one for whom the whole universe of the story warps around her (or him...but it's often a her), and the characters that we are supposedly interested in suddenly become secondary characters in a psychodrama about this supposed spear carrier.

But an omni-competent main character in a story about his adventures-the word for that isn't Mary Sue, it's protagonist.

I can agree...that we have different definitions of "Mary Sue".

Compare him to the Fitz of Robin Hobbs' Farseer Trilogy,

I did.

a character who is obviously quite talented, charismatic, and who accomplishes a lot of really incredible things--but everything he does is presented in the most downbeat fashion as he continually tells you how useless he is and incredible everybody else is. I'm really not sure that's any better. (Not saying the Farseer Trilogy is bad-I highly recommend it; but it is different).

Public perception is part of Mary-Sueism. I don't remember Fitz being quite the downer you present him as, but I think a lot of his accomplishments were marginalized, viewed with suspicion, or flat-out secret and unknown. The fact that Kvothe is a legend in his own time is part of the Mary Sue effect.

Anyways, he's not a full-on Mary Sue. He's just...not really believable anymore, for me.

An omni-competent main character in a story is boring.

 

[Salamandyr]

Then yes, it sounds like we have definite differences of opinion about what constitutes a Mary Sue. If we are going to throw well over half the main characters (including most of the ones with the greatest amount of public recognition) of stories into the Mary Sue pile, then it's my opinion that the term Mary Sue can no longer be considered a derogatory statement, merely a descriptive one.

Also, as pointed out above, Kvothe is not omni-competent. He is very good at a handful of things, all related to good memory and high intelligence, and has theatrical skills derived from growing up in a theatre troupe. Thanks to being precocious and having an early mentor, he shows up at the University versed in a lot of things that other people his age don't know yet. None of that seems all that unbelievable to me.

But, as always, YMMV, I don't find him any more unbelievable than any number of real life high achievers. You obviously don't. That's fine. No artistic work is going to work for everyone. I dislike using terms like "Mary Sue" that carry with them all sorts of generalized baggage that don't really enlighten all that much except to say "bad".

If Kvothe, Indiana Jones, James Bond, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Conan, Fitz (because low self esteem aside, he's pretty omni competent), Raistlin, Jack Reacher, Capt. Kirk, Mal Reynolds, et. al. are all Mary Sues, then like I said, Mary Sue is merely a description, not an insult.

 

[Super Pony]

I have just finished the Felurian chapters and now really dislike the character.

I concur, oh grumpy one . That was the longest and most painful sequence that I've read in a book for...maybe ever? From there on out, I was just kind of numb and barely remember the rest of the book.

There were some things that I liked in Wise Man's Fear. But very little of it seemed to do more than swirl the central plot around like a finger swishing an olive around in a dry martini. How's the martini? Dunno...you don't get to drink it. But how cute is that Olive? Oh you don't get to eat that either. But the temperature of the drink seems right and the gin smells nice.

 

[Nellisir]

Then yes, it sounds like we have definite differences of opinion about what constitutes a Mary Sue. If we are going to throw well over half the main characters (including most of the ones with the greatest amount of public recognition) of stories into the Mary Sue pile,

I'm not doing so, and do not put words in my mouth.

Kvothe is not omni-competent.

You brought up omni-competence, not I, and I was speaking in generalities, not specifics. I agree, Kvothe is not omni-competent. I liked the books enough to be interested in reading the third one. Based on some comments here, including yours, I might even reread the first two. I can't convey how rare it is that I do that.

I dislike using terms like "Mary Sue" that carry with them all sorts of generalized baggage that don't really enlighten all that much except to say "bad".

Then don't use them.

If Kvothe, Indiana Jones, James Bond, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Conan, Fitz (because low self esteem aside, he's pretty omni competent), Raistlin, Jack Reacher, Capt. Kirk, Mal Reynolds, et. al. are all Mary Sues, then like I said, Mary Sue is merely a description, not an insult.

And again, I never said anything like that nor do I think that.