Knockout on a Ghost?

[kristov]

What happens if a rogue tries to use his knockout ability on a ghost? A skeleton? A green slime or some other kind of pudding monster?

What happens if a rogue tries and use his positioning strike ability on a 4 legged creature like a bull? Or something huge like a Dragon? etc?

With so many random powers strewn across the classes what happens when used against certain creatures where you don't really think it would work? I mean maybe once in a blue moon but not every time?

Do you just ignore the fact it doesn't seem realistic and just let it happen anyways?

 

[Flipguarder]

What happens if a rogue tries to use his knockout ability on a ghost? A skeleton? A green slime or some other kind of pudding monster?

What happens if a rogue tries and use his positioning strike ability on a 4 legged creature like a bull? Or something huge like a Dragon? etc?

With so many random powers strewn across the classes what happens when used against certain creatures where you don't really think it would work? I mean maybe once in a blue moon but not every time?

Do you just ignore the fact it doesn't seem realistic and just let it happen anyways?

Nope, you convert the flavor of the power to work with the creature.

Instead of blinding barrage getting blood in the eyes of ghosts, have there be so many blades going through the ghosts's eyes that the phantasmal goo with the ghost's eyes are made of disperse from its being for the same duration.

Reflavoring powers is one of the most important skills necessary for excellent 4e DMing.

 

[Fanaelialae]

What happens if a rogue tries to use his knockout ability on a ghost? A skeleton? A green slime or some other kind of pudding monster?

What happens if a rogue tries and use his positioning strike ability on a 4 legged creature like a bull? Or something huge like a Dragon? etc?

With so many random powers strewn across the classes what happens when used against certain creatures where you don't really think it would work? I mean maybe once in a blue moon but not every time?

Do you just ignore the fact it doesn't seem realistic and just let it happen anyways?

Generally, I try to figure out a way to justify it working. If I can't think of something reasonable, I'll ask if the player can think of a decent justification/ method.

For example, I've allowed a player to destabilize an ooze by slapping it with the flat of his blade, setting up vibrations that caused it to function as though prone.

Another time, a fighter wanted to use Come and Get It, but the only route one of his targets could take would take it straight through a giant bonfire and would likely have killed it. I couldn't imagine this creature doing something that outrageously stupid and when I asked the player, he couldn't see why it would either so I let him use a different power instead.

In general, try to find a reason to say yes, but if no justification can be found by anyone, it's okay to say the character realizes he can't make that work and does something else instead.

 

[KKDragonLord]

Well, using hazards and the terrain strategically is a part of smart playing the rules, if you try to rationalize the functioning of some powers, especialy those that make forced movement which the Warlord class has in abundance, and prevent them to work you will be crippling the players ability to make strategic decisions.

Btw, there is a rule for that exact situation. The creature would get a saving throw and drop prone as the bonfire qualifys precisely as being Hazardrous Terrain, its the same situation as if it were the edge of a cliff.

And to answer the OP:
Yes, i allow effects such as knockout and knockdown on ghosts. I'd rule that ghosts are conscious beigns that maintain a perception of self, and the knockout attack would cause a psychossomatic effect in which the ghost would react as if it were alive. But usually my players understand that 4e rules dont always make sense and yet they are supposed to work so they normally avoid making tough questions.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Another time, a fighter wanted to use Come and Get It, but the only route one of his targets could take would take it straight through a giant bonfire and would likely have killed it. I couldn't imagine this creature doing something that outrageously stupid and when I asked the player, he couldn't see why it would either so I let him use a different power instead.

If the fighter had line of effect to the target, then the bonfire can't have been all that big. The target would most likely have been able to see him through it.

In which case there's no reason why the target might not have decided on a terminally heroic "leap through the bonfire".

As for knockout working on a ghost (and why would it not, if you're armed with a weapon that can hurt it? Combatant ghosts aren't immaterial) or any of the others: it works, the DM and the player describe it as best they can. Any other way is basically saying "screw you if you want to play a martial class, because a lot of your powers will just randomly fail to work". Note that every other power source can just say "it's magic" and have it work just fine with little to no justification.

 

[kristov]

QUOTE:
"But usually my players understand that 4e rules dont always make sense and yet they are supposed to work so they normally avoid making tough questions."

See this is the kind of stuff that im trying to avoid - ive got some players who are anti-4e because of this type of logic. And I cant really argue with them on some points. This game does indeed play sometimes like a board game and less like a realistic fantasy world simulator when it comes to things like this.

Im trying to clarify these types of issues in my head so I can defend the game properly

 

[Regicide]

QUOTE:
This game does indeed play sometimes like a board game and less like a realistic fantasy world simulator when it comes to things like this.

It's more like a Wrestlemania simulator. Second winds, healing surges, kickouts, shoves and pushes. Good stuff if you're into that man-slamming action. But seriously, it's a very good fantasy world simulator... if your take on what constitutes a fantasy world includes the non-stop fighting hi-jinks of Xena or The Rock in The Scorpion King and not limited to just "serious" fantasy like Tolkien and R. R. Martin.

Warrior princesses would have no problem knocking out a ghost with a jug of wine. Hobbits and rangers... would not be quite so successful.

 

[KKDragonLord]

QUOTE:
"But usually my players understand that 4e rules dont always make sense and yet they are supposed to work so they normally avoid making tough questions."

See this is the kind of stuff that im trying to avoid - ive got some players who are anti-4e because of this type of logic. And I cant really argue with them on some points. This game does indeed play sometimes like a board game and less like a realistic fantasy world simulator when it comes to things like this.

Im trying to clarify these types of issues in my head so I can defend the game properly

Well... yeah, some people really can't be forced to like 4e for its simplicity. Usually i say that 4e is a wargame with roleplaying just like 3e was, but the difference is that its honest about it and because of that it focuses on being a great strategy game while allowing complete freedom on the Roleplaying stuff.

When that doesn't convince the person to at least give it a try, i stop trying.

You could try pointing out that 3e D&D is a lot less realistic than other systems such as Gurps or Rolemaster, and its also full of gaps and holes, probably a lot more than 4e, so its just a matter of getting used to it.

4e is also superior in balance and you don't have to tweak your character to be a worthy addition to the party, and you can go just fine without looking up thousands of feats and hundreds of prestige classes in 15 different splatbooks to make your character. (for now)

But if you are truly willing to give a reasonable interpretation of the rules in 4e, be prepared to start writing a house rule book with all the tiny changes and reasoning that doing that will take. Start by explaining how sneak attack works on skeletons, zombies, oozes, constructs, elementals, etc...
then go on to see mounted combat, aerial combat, illumination rules, stealth, fire powers underwater, knocking people unconcious, forced movement such as: "halfling rogue moves huge dragon with sling stone"
the Warlord Class, Healing surges: "near-dead character wounds heal up fully after 6hs rest", etc...

I do believe you have to accept that in 4e the rules take precedence over logic and dont always make sense in order to enjoy this game. Thats why i try making people accept that its board wargame with roleplaying and if they don't like streamlined strategy wargaming at its finest, they should play storyteller or gurps or rolemaster, (all good systems too).

 

[Turtlejay]

It's more like a Wrestlemania simulator. Second winds, healing surges, kickouts, shoves and pushes. Good stuff if you're into that man-slamming action. But seriously, it's a very good fantasy world simulator... if your take on what constitutes a fantasy world includes the non-stop fighting hi-jinks of Xena or The Rock in The Scorpion King and not limited to just "serious" fantasy like Tolkien and R. R. Martin.

Warrior princesses would have no problem knocking out a ghost with a jug of wine. Hobbits and rangers... would not be quite so successful.

Reading this. . .I'm not sure you have read Lord of the Rings. Why do you always have to go *there*? Let it be, man.

Jay

 

[Garthanos]

Nope, you convert the flavor of the power to work with the creature.

Instead of blinding barrage getting blood in the eyes of ghosts, have there be so many blades going through the ghosts's eyes that the phantasmal goo with the ghost's eyes are made of disperse from its being for the same duration.

Reflavoring powers is one of the most important skills necessary for excellent 4e DMing.

Exactly what he said.. how powers work, is not necessarily a duplicate every time used. The game did something really cool, but I think they miscalled by only presenting one visualization per power or by being so terse in general examples (other games which feature this give so many more examples). A thread I have found useful was with regards to skinning of the fighter at wills... Once you get used to presenting things differently then pulling in situational differences in narration become a DM's excuse to hand out bonuses.