KotS question: A2 => A3 (spoilers)

[Wiggimuck]

I just got Keep on the Shadowfell and I am wondering how the transition from outside the kobold lair (A2) to the inside of the kobold lair (A3) works.

a.) Clearly the designers expect the party to enter through the waterfall entrance, but on the map it looks like there are three entrances. And on the picture (p.23) of the waterfall entrance there looks like there are stairs going up to the lair and a cliff wall. How many entrances are there? If there are three how does the map account for the cliff wall? If there is only one why does the map have three openings?

b.) Inside the kobold lair (A3) is supposed to be a separate encounter from outside the cliff lair (A2). Characters can even use stealth to surprise the kobolds inside the lair. How is this possible when a major battle happened just 5 or 6 squares away outside the lair and there is nothing to obscure sight and sound but a waterfall that produces only a tiny creek that doesn't even hamper movement?

 

[Simplicity]

(1) I think there's only supposed to be one entrance.

(2) The waterfall is something like 20-30 feet across. That's a lot of water. Turn on your bathtub. Loud isn't it? And it's not even much water. How easy is it to have a conversation from your bathroom to the kitchen? And how many squares away is your kitchen? Note that caves can echo even better than bathrooms... I think it's very believable, but it may not occur to everyone how hard it is to hear in conditions like that. Just emphasize when the players go into the cave how loud it is in there.

 

[Satha]

1.) I went with three entrances, allowed a more tactical approach to the encounter, and the rogue was being all stealthy, so I went with it.

2.) There is a sidebar in the encounter spread for A2 that reads "Inside the Lair" (it's to the left of the picture of the map), it explains that they do not emerge from the cave as they believe the outside guards can handle any sort of commotion. Check it out.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Based on the art on p. 23, I see one set of stairs but more than one opening. It looks like there's an archway on the left but no way to get to it from below. Maybe a salmon could get up there, but I don't think any PC could climb up those mossy rocks with the waterfall crashing down on them. DC 60 Athletics check?

But as a tactical option it suggests that once you're inside the cave you could probably force-move someone out one of the archways to be swept away by the waterfall. They'd definitely be taking damage, and if you want to be mean you could force a Athletics check to swim out from under the crushing water. The "realistic" thing would be that the waterfall would pin you to the floor of that lake something fierce.

 

[Ryngard]

I ruled that the waterfall wasn't a raging Niagra Falls type, but a simple little thing that with a couple squares of double movement they could scale. It kept the action up.

Now my group ambushed the kobolds outside and then when they were down to one or two left, one kobold ran up the waterfall and called for help. The PCs then began to use ranged weapons but the Dwarf Fighter went to the left cave opening and found the reinforcements. We ended up with battles on all three sides.

Intense melee on the left, ranged at the waterfall, and the poor Paladin fought a skirmisher and three minions by himself on the right side.

They took, without a rest, the kobold "ambush" (well they had a five minute recharge) then the outside followed IMMEDIATELY by the inside. It was CRAZY hard and a LOT of fun!

Irontooth was the last mob left alive and my group felt very triumphant when they finally felled his big butt! His Blood crazed regen had them freaking out. hehehe

 

[Dracollich]

I too ruled that there were three entrances to the cave. My group didn't take down the slinger before he ran into the cave to warn the others. This lead to the group splitting up a little. The rogue was being chased around by the dragonshield outside in the far corner (almost got him... dang halfling reroll) with back up supplied by the warlord. The dwarf charged through the waterfall, the cleric headed towards the entrance on their side of the creek, and the wizard stayed in the magic circle supporting where he could.

I ruled that the waterfall provided full concealment (-5 to attacks) to anyone shooting through it.

I have to give props to the dwarf fighter for his bravery. He stepped through the waterfall fearlessly and confronted the minions and skirmishers. They in turn surrounded him and brought him down. This became a classic movie moment... The fighter, piled on by numerous minions, falls. With a heroic surge (provided by the cleric nearby) he throws them off with a mighty sweep of his maul. Minions go flying, skirmishers duck and cover, and the power of 4E cleave was aptly demonstrated. 6 kobolds fell to that one powerful swipe of the dwarven maul.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I hadn't noticed the other two ways in when I ran it until I unfolded the map (they being right on the "crease"), so I ruled that the other two were simply "windows" or cave openings high in the ceiling that let light in but would be quite the effort to get to.

I used the waterfall as the only real way in and out, and I made it a DC 10 athletics check and 3 squares of movement to get through. My PC's were routed, so there was some fun leaping back through the falls on the way out (the rogue TUMBLED through (my characters are 2nd level), and I let him have full movement because he's an elf and can shift in difficult terrain.) Irontooth leaped through after him.

I think it was pretty fun that way.

Fitz

 

[Wiggimuck]

Thanks for the replies. I think I'm going to leave it at three entrances for more tactical options. As for the waterfall, it will be little more than a watery window. The kobolds inside will hear just about everything during the battle but through sheer stupidity (as outlined by the "Inside the Lair" sidebar) the they will not join the fight unless warned or a PC enters the lair.

I'm still not completely satisfied by the tactics of the transition between the two encounters, after all raising the alarm is the simplest and most common reaction to an attack, but I suppose dumber things could happen.