KotS Total-Party-Kill!!

[silentounce]

<cool stuff>

Anyway- too many opinions, is there a way through this- to make combat twenty minutes tops, less mechanical? More of a... story?

Answers on a postcard.

Well, I don't know how you run combat, but giving players less time to decide what to do always speeds things up. Remember, though, this was the first time playing with a new rule set so of course things are going to bog down. Honestly, I didn't see anything in your recap that couldn't happen using 4e. Most of it was RP anyway, right? There's no reason the dwarf couldn't seduce the barmaid in 4e, etc. If anything, I think that the new powers/spells/exploits whatever you want to call them can actually make the combat more roleplayee, if you catch my drift. It'll give less creative players fuel to describe their actions. But without more info on how you run your 3.x combats, I don't know what else to tell you.

Also, it seems like the best advice I can give you would be, your campaign doesn't seem to be broken, so don't fix it. Maybe 4e just isn't for your group.

EDIT: didn't read your most recent post before commenting.
I think I may have found what your combat problem is. As many have said, 4e is very cooperative when it comes to combat, especially the one that this thread is talking about. With the hidden character shenanigans, not that there's anything wrong with that, that seem to be going on in your group, and, as you put it yourself, they don't seem to be the most cooperative group. If the PCs are thinking of themselves first, it's going to make combat a lot more clunky and difficult.

 

[Blackeagle]

So what happens on Sunday and it turns out that their tactical prowess is, well... not up to it. Does that mean we can't play anymore? That 4e is not for us? Because that's how it appears at the moment...

It's possible that 4e is not for you. From reading your posts, however, it seems like the problem may lie in KotS, rather than 4e. You're trying to run a group that's not particularly tactical and is new to the combat system through a classic hack and slash dungeon crawl with many tough encounters (some well above the party's level). It's not all that surprising that this might be a problem.

Honestly, I think you may want to wait until the full rules come out (unless you are one of the lucky ones to have them already) and come up with an introductory adventure that better suits your party's style.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

Celebrim -

re: not needing rules to roleplay.

Even to the extent that this is true, this is not a logical argument for adopting a new set of rules.

Your comment has ZERO to do with the topic at hand. Please refer to my sig as it defnitely applies here.

To recap since you are apparently incapable of reading threads and choose just to regurgitate tired objections to 4e. Let me break this down for you as simply as I can possibly make it:

1. Is it "worth it" to convert Keep on the Borderlands to 4E.

My answer. . . its worth it if the group has fun playing it plain and simple.

2. Does keep on the borderlands constitute "roleplaying." If not, does that make it not worthwhile to convert.

My answer. . . irrelevant. Its worth it if the group has fun playing it. . . regardless of what you call it.

3. Does KotBL actually present opportunities to roleplay.

My answer. . . absolutely. I provided a couple examples and pointed out that you didn't need rules to roleplay.

You will notice, AT NO POINT did anybody say, "Should I play 4E or not. . . why or why not." You post was just worthless, knee jerk reaction to something that wasn't even being discussed.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

To recap since you are apparently incapable of reading threads and choose just to regurgitate tired objections to 4e. Let me break this down for you as simply as I can possibly make it:

Actually, the topic at hand (which people ceased to discuss two pages ago) is TPKs in Keep on the Shadowfell.

The topic shouldn't be...
1. Why I hate 4e
2. Keep on the Borderlands converstions
3. Does roleplaying need rules

That should probably be a new thread.

DS

 

[HP Dreadnought]

Touche'.

 

[WheelsOnMeals]

And on that note...

Is anyone planning on running the Kobold Manor "mini-adventure" from the DMG as an intro into KotS? Doing that would probably get the party to level 2 before hitting the kobold lair, if that would actually help much.

Of course, there are drawbacks:
- That might just be too much in the way of kobolds.
- You might end up a little overpowered by the end of KotS/start of Thunderspire if you have a party that's successfully wrung every last ounce of XP out of the adventure. Of course, if you see that happening you can just tweak numbers to get party advancement back in line.

 

[LostSoul]

Er... Help, please.

Try out The Shadow of Yesterday!

As far as KotS goes, try this:

• On the top of each character sheet, write in: "What <character name> wants:" and have the player fill it in. Not in pen, in pencil, so the player can change it.
• Look at what the PCs want. Look at the NPCs in the module. Change the module so that the NPCs provide obstacles in the way of the PC getting what he wants.
• Change the NPCs in such a way that they have reasonable desires. "I want to open a portal to the Shadowfell because I'm evil!" is lame. "I want to open a portal to the Shadowfell because I need to talk with my dead wife" is better. "I took up the worship of Orcus because it was the only way to get what I wanted. How can you say you wouldn't do the same in my situation?"
• Make connections between the NPCs to bring them into the story.
• When you run the encounters, don't start off with violence. Escalate to it if that's the only way to get what the NPCs want.
• Give the players opportunities to use skill challenges to change the NPCs.

Combat will still be tactical and mechanical, but at least there's some dramatic "oomph" behind it.

 

[Goonalan]

Not going to be a long reply, it's far too late, thanks... no really, for all of your suggestions, really haven't got the time to thank you individually- lots of good stuff there. I'll definitely report back after the game on Sunday.

One last thing- the players are not just out for themselves in my campaigns it just seems they all want to play Clint Eastwood- certainly the case for the warriors.

Cheers

 

[Aenghus]

I've run one session of KOTS so far and my limited experience of 4e suggests that teamwork is far more important to exploit the tactical opportunities of of the PCs abilities.

Conversely, the increased number of monsters in encounters, and their particular abilities increases the tactical possibilities for the monsters and makes their effectiveness more variable, depending on the abilities of the DM concerned.

At this point I think that on average DMs have a better handle on 4e tactics than players, and so encounters will be tougher for players than expected. The Irontooth encounter is a tough one, but I'd say the number of TPKs has been contributed to by the disparity in rules knowledge. It remains to be seen how steep the learning curve is.

And particular playing styles will have have an effect. The increased interaction with other PCs involved in many of the powers doesn't work well with a bunch of loner concept pcs. At a first guess, rangers, warlocks and wizards seem to have less affect-other-pc powers and would work better for mysterious stranger pcs. 4e does seem to assume even more than previous edition that the PCs will work together as a team.

That said, if the combats in KOTS are working out too tough for a particular group, it does look easier to drop some monsters or weaken them to take the pressure off.

 

[silentounce]

It'll be interesting to see if these guys get TPK'd: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080530&authentic=true

Penny Arcade and PvP vs. 4e

Granted, he probably cut the encounters down a lot with only 3 PCs.

James Darkmagic, III.
/snicker