L&L 5/21 - Hit Points, Our Old Friend

[slobster]

Solo status and size should not be divorced in 5e and hopefully solo as a status is not needed anymore.

They shouldn't be too tightly linked, either. I'd like a demi-lich to be a credible threat to the entire party, even though it's all of a cubic foot in volume!

I don't really care much about the hp as an in-game concept debate. It's torturous to try and come up with a description that applies to the PCs, nobody will agree even if you do, and when all is said and done it will all break down anyway once you try to apply it to monsters and other in-game entities that aren't as standardized and relatable to reality as player characters are.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No, a Lich is a supernatural creature. No prolems with high hp here. But look at my examples... that just does not fit.

 

[slobster]

No, a Lich is a supernatural creature. No prolems with high hp here. But look at my examples... that just does not fit.

Yeah, that's fine. I personally don't have a problem with humanoid solos. I don't have a problem with high level humanoids, and a say 10th level orc shaman would wipe the floor with a low level party far more convincingly than a solo enemy of their same level.

So it's not a matter of comparative power that's the problem, so what is it?

Hmmm . . . really not on the thread topic. Sorry OP! Maybe we can take this elsewhere if it's something you still want to discuss?

 

[Lord Mhoram]

Headed to work, but wanted to get my thoughts in before. I've ready about 2/3rds of the thread.

I don't think hit dice are Healing Surges light - I think they are reserve points like in the 3.x Unearthed Arcana or Iron Heroes. A pool of hit points you can use outside of combat to heal yourself without magic.

Healing surges put a cap on healing period - spells and potions and such took them. This is not true of Hit Dice.

Healing surges could be used in combat, or triggered by healer types - this doesn't look to be the case in Hit Dice.

And the thing I really didn't like about surges was the cap on magical healing - so that is gone. Happy for me.


As to the HP definition - I think some of the wording was lifted directly from AD&D 1st (thought I don't have to check) so that is fine with me. Having each level set explicit is great - that allows people that have the "He shouts and you heal?!?" problem to be able to be more comfortable with the class - as someone mentioned above - perhaps the Warlords curative effects only work on non-bloodied. That would really help immersion for those that have a problem with the 4E approach, but still keep the Warlord as a viable character.

Personally I liked everything I saw in this one.

 

[Dragoslav]

During my 4e game yesterday, I had another thought:

Crits need to work differently in this system.

You can describe > 1/2 hp as scuffs and fleshwounds, but a CRIT shouldn't just be a scuff or a fleshwound.

It's just a very skillful or powerful blow. If you have >1/2 HP afterwards, you deflected the blow, but doing so really exhausted you (maybe you had to deflect a giant's club, or you had to weave and parry against a swordsman's flurry of strikes). If you have <1/2 HP, you were completely caught off guard or were unable to deflect the blow, so you took a nasty hit. If you're under 0 HP, you were too exhausted/distracted to get out of the way in time, or you were beaten up so badly already that this blow knocked you unconscious or otherwise incapacitated you.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

But if hit dice are recovered at 1 (or 2, etc) per day, rather than all at once, natural healing will exhibit the problem.

I agree with that, but this one of those things were my appreciation for tight, predictiable mechanics and natural sympathy for the old-school "wearing down of the party over time" are at war.

A rather interesting side effect of this mechanic, if I read it correctly, is that early in an "adventure" the party will function a bit more like a 4E party. They are topped out, healed up, ready to go. However, as they adventure continues, hit dice are used, and not fully recovered, the party moves more and more into functioning a bit like an AD&D party. Magical healing becomes more and more critical to keep going. Of course, this is relative, as when I say "bit" I mean that shift will be as extreme as straight 4E or AD&D.

That, in turn, has rather interesting implications for house rules and/or modules. If you want something more like 4E, you can be generous with the restoration of "hit dice" explicitly, use short "adventures," or arbitrarily make a bigger "adventure" into a several shorter ones. It all ends up the same, as people get chances to heal up fully.

OTOH, if you want something more like AD&D, you can be rather strict with "hit dice" restoration, deliberately define "adventure" as somewhat longer than normal, or even set up environmental factors. (For example, you could put the "adventure" out in the wilderness, a week from civilization, and then knock off a few "hit dice" for fatigue before the adventure technically starts--whether you play that out with skill checks, wandering monsters, or start the party at the dungeon door with fewer "hit dice" as an abstraction.)

Heh, this brings to mind the Dragon Quest "fatigue" mechanic where the game master is specifically instructed (with some detailed rules) on how to adjust starting fatigue based on the circumstances. You are in better shape when jumped in the tavern in town, after resting for a few days, than you are the end of a long day travel in the wilderness.

 

[technoextreme]

Or take me vs Rocky Balboa. One hit and I'm out. I'll wake up in a short while, and be pretty much good to go. Now, pretend I'm Apollo Creed. I go 10 rounds, trading punch for punch with Rocky until we both fall to the mat. Rocky manages to force himself up at the last second to win, but the both of us spend the next month just recovering before we can even entertain the idea of another fight of that magnitude.

Are you dumb? Are you ing insane!!!!!!!! Do you have any idea how stupid this sounds anyone who knows how medicine works? One solid hit in the right spot from a professional boxer and you are out for monthes on end with the distinct possibility of long lasting damage and cognitive problems. Though thank you for providing the perfect example of why trying to tie in hit points with physical damage is still an abstraction the likes of which is still idiotic and stupid on the level that most people tend to complain about 4th edition.

Mod Note: Please see my note below ~Umbran

In 4E you needed to go to - Bloodied. That basically never happens except by falling off a cliff into a super-massive black hole that happens to be on fire - or you got caught in the blast of one too many Area of Effect attacks while you were down.

No it definately does happen. In fact I think I've seen it happen double digit times. I've also seen the three saves or die happen too.

 

[pemerton]

Of course it is only one component.

Fighters always had hp calues equal to those of dragons, when they were higher level.

But goblins did not.

I thought that in 3E they could, if they had levels.

And in AD&D it would be possible to have an ad hoc high level goblin, even if there was no systematic rule for it (and that's ignoring the Complete Book of Humanoids).

The problem is that the solo template was used for some creatures that should either be higher level and elite or even, in the worst applications for creatures that happened to be encountered alone.

Also it was problematic, that an enemy that should have just been higher level was instead made an elite... easier to hit, but beeing able to take more punishment. For a tactical fight that seems reasonable, but the same result could have been achieved with combat maneuvers against weaker creatures (double attack as an option for monsters by default, if you encounter foes of much lower level accompanied with a -x to attacks and defenses... add in damage reduction against lower level foes and it should work out ok)

But hitting a goblin for 100 damage or so and it still stands feels just wrong.

I used a solo approach to make a powerful MU a suitable opponent for my 13th level PCs. It worked fine. The narration wasn't wonky - I narrated this guy parrying blows with his staff, holding off attacks through his magical power, and letting fly with an array of spells the likes of which the PCs had never before seen.

No, a Lich is a supernatural creature. No prolems with high hp here. But look at my examples... that just does not fit.

But a goblin with 100s of hit points is a supernatural creature, or something similar - given that its hp aren't meat, they represent luck, divine favour, cosmic significance etc.

If a group can't stomach narrating a goblin in that fashion, then don't give it so many hp! Conversely, if a group is using goblins with that many hp, then get the narration right!

 

[Bedrockgames]

Are you dumb? Are you ing insane!!!!!!!! Do you have any idea how stupid this sounds anyone who knows how medicine works? One solid hit in the right spot from a professional boxer and you are out for monthes on end with the distinct possibility of long lasting damage and cognitive problems.

No it definately does happen. In fact I think I've seen it happen double digit times. I've also seen the three saves or die happen too.

Well i dont think we should be calling people names for speculating on what would happen if rocky balboa slugged them.

I think you guys are both kind of right. It all depends. One knock out punch and he would probably be up and about (seemingly okay) within 1-10 minutes (really most knock outs tend to be under a minute). However if he cracked his head on the way down, which is easy to do, he could be in serious trouble. Generally speaking when boxers die or take serious damage in the ring, it is from repeated, unreturned, blows to the head. Not usually from a single heavy blow (same thing for getting knocked, combos are usually what does it). The chances of him going into a monthlong coma though from a single blow by mr. Stallone, is very, very slim.

One knock out blow couod give you a concussion, and those can have effects that last up to a month (you would be very easy to knock out again within that period).

I aggree that D&D isn't really equioed to model this stuff.

 

[Mercutio01]

One knock out punch and he would probably be up and about (seemingly okay) within 1-10 minutes (really most knock outs tend to be under a minute).

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Barring something unforeseen, and just taking the hit into account, that's exactly what would happen.

However if he cracked his head on the way down, which is easy to do, he could be in serious trouble.

And that I would call a critical hit.

One knock out blow couod give you a concussion, and those can have effects that last up to a month (you would be very easy to knock out again within that period).

Lasting damage is a quite different thing. And that is something D&D definitely does not model well, at all.