Lava - What is it?

[werk]

The unusual flat top of the Table is due to the eruption of lava into a stagnant glacier that once covered the Garibaldi area. Erupted from below, the hot lava melted a hole in the base of the glacier forming a pool of lava surrounded by ice. Later when the glacier melted, the lava remained as a rock column with its flat top.

I don't know which side this supports, but I thought it was kinda cool.

 

[DreadArchon]

Give those options, I would go Fire. I would consider it Earth/Fire in terms of energy types.

Not just you. Linky. Magma = Fire + Earth

 

[James McMurray]

I believe I got that particular label from "The Grand List of Console Role Playing Game Cliches", number 86. (Google Cache link)

I think I just found my next campaign plotline.

 

[Rogue problem]

"Magic" is the source of confusion

There is common sense when the laws of physics apply but I think we all know those fly out the window in D&D all the time. What would be the point of a spell that makes stone allready in its solid (frozen) state get even colder? The spell seems designed for lava to be made solid and cold (the spell says it freezes water so we know that has to be at least 32 degrees). If people can fly in this game, go invisable and everything else physically impossible why is it so outlandish to be able to make something very hot suddenly get cold? Funny how thats impossible yet everything else crazy in the game isn't.

 

[BASHMAN]

The reason I wouldn't allow the frostburn spell to work on lava is because you areessentially allowing a 2nd(?) level spell to counter a 9th level spell ... and the lower level spell has nothing to do with the Dispel magic spell chain!

I know there are spells that counter each other and they aren't always equal in level. But 2nd to 9th just seems a bit much to me.

Common sense ruling still seems to me to be: Nope. Doesn't work.

Yeah, I'd buy that argument. If it were a 7th level spell, then I would think maybe the druid would have a leg to stand on, but balance wise, a level 2 spell countering a 9th, no way.

Now, as to my common sense thing, I was coming at it from the view that it would be illogical for the spell to change the temperature of the lava by thousands of degrees but only change the temperature of water by less than 100 degrees (probably less than 50).

In my first true attempt at RPG design, i created a system that had spells similar to this-- but they stated the exact amount of degrees F that the target would change, and listed what the effects would be on various substances (and people).

Of course, this made the spell description REALLY long (and it was a favorite spell of one of the players, used to cause enemy armor to turn into a white-hot, slag-pile with an ashy-corpse center.

 

[Arkhandus]

(edit: meant in response to Rogue Problem's rationale)

......Because this isn't a high-level spell we're talking about. Low-level spells are known to protect A SINGLE PERSON from approximately TWELVE SECONDS or less of immersion in lava. As a 3rd-level spell (Protection From Elements/Energy). Actually freezing a larger area of lava into cold rock? Absurd for a spell of similar level.

And in D&D, lava/magma is as much elemental fire in nature as it is elemental earth. The spell in question does not affect elemental fire. Ergo it cannot freeze the bits of elemental fire interspersed throughout every dollop of lava, and thus basically accomplishes nothing but to slightly cool down a mass of lava for about 1-6 seconds (not nearly enough cooling though for a character to walk across it; just enough to make it more like a bowl of cereal in consistency than thick liquid).

 

[James McMurray]

Now, as to my common sense thing, I was coming at it from the view that it would be illogical for the spell to change the temperature of the lava by thousands of degrees but only change the temperature of water by less than 100 degrees (probably less than 50).

The spell isn't based on amount of change. It sets the temperature to a flat level of "everfrost" no matter what the freezing point of the target substance is.

Regarding spells countering one another: would the folks that don't like this allow a cleric with a readied action to cast Cure Light Wounds in response to a Power Word Kill? The first level spell would then make the target of the PWK completely immune to a 9th level spell that normally allows no save.

My point is that these things happen already in the rules, and they should be adjudicated on a case by case basis rather than be dismissed out of hand simply because "things like that shouldn't happen." Is freezing lava broken? That's the question that should be asked, or at least, it's the question that should be asked in a thread about the Flashfreeze spell working on lava.

 

[Arkhandus]

Power Word: Kill is a bad example. You speak the word, the target dies. The only way the cleric could've stopped it that way would be with a Quickened Cure Light Wounds, or a specific counterspell to the PWK (either a dispel magic or similar, or a PWK of his own if he somehow had such).

And technically, the cleric shouldn't know it's a Power Word, Kill until it's probably halfway spoken anyway, using a Spellcraft check to identify after he's heard enough to place it. He shouldn't know it's something a quickened CLW could stop until it was probably or almost too late; given the nature of PWK, I'd probably force him to make an opposed Reflex save to react to the Word in time with a quickened spell word. And technically (...again), Power Word Kill is one of the only high-level spells that can be thwarted by a very low-level spell, simply because of its unusual success condition; it's far from being the norm. You don't stop Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm with a 1st or 2nd level spell, or even Dominate Monster (a Protection from Evil could suppress it, but only for about a second before the Dominate caster gets irked and casts a Quickened Dispel Magic to get rid of the pesky Protection spell; even PfE can't really prevent Dominate Monster, it's just a roadbump along the way to that spell's success).

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Regarding spells countering one another: would the folks that don't like this allow a cleric with a readied action to cast Cure Light Wounds in response to a Power Word Kill? The first level spell would then make the target of the PWK completely immune to a 9th level spell that normally allows no save.

My point is that these things happen already in the rules, and they should be adjudicated on a case by case basis rather than be dismissed out of hand simply because "things like that shouldn't happen." Is freezing lava broken? That's the question that should be asked, or at least, it's the question that should be asked in a thread about the Flashfreeze spell working on lava.

I disagree entirely. ever wonder why there are broken PrC combinations out there? Likely because nobody saw them during the game design phase. Since nobody saw the brokenness, nobody saw the relevant need to fix it.

Same with spells. I think asking if a 2nd level spell could so easily counter a 9th level spell is a very legitimate question to ask. It doesn't answer the question of whether being able to freeze lava is broken - which is a valid question, thanks for pointing us in that direction. Instead, it points to potential abuses and honestly asks if a 20d6 per round threat should be countered so easily by a spell that a 3rd level druid could cast.

Aside reower Word Kill used in the example:

How does casting a CLW on a character make them immune to Power Word Kill? Or are you speaking in a counterspelling sense?

Power Word Kill can be targeted at a character with 100 hp or less, and it instantly the target. There is no saving throw. A cure light wounds would heal them. So, a cleric readying a cure light wounds would heal the character first, and the the Power Word would kill them ... or else the Power Word would kill them and then the cure wouldn't take effect. How is one immune? [Forgive me if I am missing something obvious, I'm not intentially trying to be stupid.]

 

[James McMurray]

Power Word: Kill is a bad example. You speak the word, the target dies. The only way the cleric could've stopped it that way would be with a Quickened Cure Light Wounds, or a specific counterspell to the PWK (either a dispel magic or similar, or a PWK of his own if he somehow had such).

It's a readied action to interrupt casting, no quickening is necessary, and spellcraft works just fine. Or do you not allow people to counterspell Power Words as well?

You don't stop Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm with a 1st or 2nd level spell, or even Dominate Monster (a Protection from Evil could suppress it, but only for about a second before the Dominate caster gets irked and casts a Quickened Dispel Magic to get rid of the pesky Protection spell; even PfE can't really prevent Dominate Monster, it's just a roadbump along the way to that spell's success).

I never said you could stop those others that way. What I said was that low level spells can already counter high level spells in very specific situations, so clamoring against the idea itself is both too late and not really warranted (at least not in the eyes of the people that designed the lower level counters).

Same with spells. I think asking if a 2nd level spell could so easily counter a 9th level spell is a very legitimate question to ask. It doesn't answer the question of whether being able to freeze lava is broken - which is a valid question, thanks for pointing us in that direction. Instead, it points to potential abuses and honestly asks if a 20d6 per round threat should be countered so easily by a spell that a 3rd level druid could cast.

Even if "should a very specific 2nd level spell be able to counter a very specific higher level spell" is a valid question, it's meaningless in a dicsussion about flashfreeze and lava. And as already pointed out, the game designers themselves think that low level spells should be able to counter higher level spells in the right situations.

How does casting a CLW on a character make them immune to Power Word Kill? Or are you speaking in a counterspelling sense?

Power Word Kill can be targeted at a character with 100 hp or less, and it instantly the target. There is no saving throw. A cure light wounds would heal them. So, a cleric readying a cure light wounds would heal the character first, and the the Power Word would kill them ... or else the Power Word would kill them and then the cure wouldn't take effect. How is one immune? [Forgive me if I am missing something obvious, I'm not intentially trying to be stupid.

If the intended target is at 99 hit points, cure light wounds will place them at 101 as a minimum, making them immune.