Leadership Revisions

[Rystil Arden]

Now that's a novel idea! I like it a lot. Perhaps the cohort PC could be upgraded to "normal PC", as long as there are a maximum of 3 "normal PCs". Then a normal PC could retire (or die) and make way for the cohort PC.

It's a very community-oriented version of Leadership, and I think it would be good for LEW.

However, I think it may take away from the allure of Leadership for the players of the Leader character. They don't get to control their cohort as much, and the cohort becomes less of a complement and more of an apprentice.

Also, it blatantly eliminates the "3 characters per player" limit. Leadership does that too, but in a more subtle manner.

It sounds pretty cool--we could also make it one option of several. You don't even always need to necessarily call it allowing a 4th-character. For instance, Hogarth was an NPC of Manzanita's before he was a cohort, and Vanitri's prospective cohort is an NPC of mine. In those cases, we could even choose to have an option where the original GM plays the cohorts as NPCs cross-game in another GM's game, which develops an interconnectedness. In other cases where a brand new character is made for the Leadership feat, we could have a sort of 4th-character like SlagMortar suggests.

 

[SlagMortar]

Cool, I'm glad the idea is well received! My original version of my post before I accidentally closed the window and lost it forcing a re-write, mentioned that I think we could drop the feat aspect and just let anyone who wants a cohort (and maybe also meets the Leadership pre-reqs) try to find someone who wants to play one.

 

[orsal]

There are several reasons that doesn't work. First, LEW's unique aspects make that difficult--there is not really a better than random continuity between adventures for characters adventuring together beyond the factor of old adventures dumping the PCs out at the same time, so it's very hard to run an apprentice sort.

But that very factor of timing does make it easy for characters who *choose* to remain a team to do so. LEW has had a number of pairs who have formed especially cloes friendships: Telerin/Aranel, Iggy/Sara, Rurik/Sturm, just off the top of my head, have all done series of adventures together. SlagMortar has some other examples. The characters in the Monemvassia series mostly stayed together through multiple adventures -- Nurlan and Tenebrynn for all four, others for overlapping subsets.

These have generally been characters of the same level, starting out together, but not always. The M-series crew recruited two first-level characters to join them in M3 when most of the rest were 4th. There are obvious reasons why many people prefer to play with characters of the same level, but if someone is interested in playing a mentor to another PC, and someone else is interested in playing an apprentice sort, and they happen to meet at appropriate stages in their careers, there's every reason they could choose to stay together as a team.

Second, 3.5's XP system ensures that the level gap is bridged (though admittedly our time XP system actually counteracts that and may reverse it if the game is terribly slow moving)

Perfect! A built-in system for a character who starts as a sidekick of significantly lower level to gradually develop into a peer of her mentor.

 

[Rystil Arden]

But that very factor of timing does make it easy for characters who *choose* to remain a team to do so. LEW has had a number of pairs who have formed especially cloes friendships: Telerin/Aranel, Iggy/Sara, Rurik/Sturm, just off the top of my head, have all done series of adventures together. SlagMortar has some other examples. The characters in the Monemvassia series mostly stayed together through multiple adventures -- Nurlan and Tenebrynn for all four, others for overlapping subsets.

These have generally been characters of the same level, starting out together, but not always. The M-series crew recruited two first-level characters to join them in M3 when most of the rest were 4th. There are obvious reasons why many people prefer to play with characters of the same level, but if someone is interested in playing a mentor to another PC, and someone else is interested in playing an apprentice sort, and they happen to meet at appropriate stages in their careers, there's every reason they could choose to stay together as a team.

I guess you may have seen this, but I haven't seen it on any of my adventures as a GM or a PC. Plus, this doesn't address the roleplaying issue, nor does it actually allow a good opportunity for a character who wants a sidekick (particularly if they want a certain sort of sidekick). Let's pretend that we used your idea and eliminated Leadership. Now level 9 Vanitri goes to look for an existing PC 2 levels lower to be a sidekick as per your suggestion. Unfortunately, there's an incredibly slim list of pickings, and it's likely that those PCs are already on a separate adventure and/or don't want to be a lackey. SlagMortar's idea is nice because it essentially creates a new character (or builds off an existing NPC) that is exactly the right level and exactly the right kind of cohort, which can be an issue too (let's say a Merlin PC really really only wanted a Paladin cohort, his Arthur. He's going to have a bad surprise when he looks at the level of PC Paladins).

Perfect! A built-in system for a character who starts as a sidekick of significantly lower level to gradually develop into a peer of her mentor.

But in many cases, it does so far too quickly. At level 6, it starts out sort of reasonable (+33% XP for the lowbie), but it still means that the cohort will level up to 5 in the time it takes the level 6 guy to get halfway to 7, so you don't really maintain a cohort relationship for more than half a level (which can be nothing depending on how the adventure starts--I've seen a group get half a level in a week real time when the adventure started with a fight). At high levels, it becomes even more extreme. Let's say a level 10 Merlin PC takes a level 8 PC cohort. The level 8 guy is getting 60% more XP, so he'll level in less than half the time, and then still 35% more at level 9, so he'll level up to 10 barely after the mentor hits 11, and then the cohort PC gets +36.36% XP, causing them to share part of level 11 at the same time.

Two important things to note from the example: First, this is only one level after the higher-level character grabbed the cohort that they are exactly the same level, so you barely get a cohort at all.

Second, edge effects can cause...greater concerns than this. For instance, one of my adventures just had a climactic encounter that gave 9250 XP to each 8th-level member of a group of 6s to 8s. Let's scale that up two levels by going diagonally down-right two from the closest number on the XP chart. We get 12000 for the level 10 guy and 19200 for the level 8 guy. But my numbers are slightly lower than the chart, so we'll say 10500 and 16900. This puts the cohort at level 9 (missing 100 XP) and the upper-level guy at just barely level 11. Now if they fight something weaker, say 6111 for the level 11 guy, the level 9 guy gains 10000 XP and levels to 10 (down 100 from level 11), while the level 11 guy isn't even two thirds of the way done yet. Now, if they fight something trivial (like a CR 4), they share a level for over 1/3rd of the level.

But what if they don't? I won't bother with the extended math, but it's possible for the cohort to wind up with more XP than the mentor by level 13. Yay for weird math (or not ).

 

[Velmont]

Ra have a point, having a pC sidekick, you won't limit his leveling and will catch up quickly the mentor. As a proof, Rinaldo was teammed with Eanos in M3. Rinaldo was a level 5 Rogue and Eanos a level 1 Monk. A huge gap. As this game started with a very social action, Rinaldo was shining well, but Eanos have taken some place, more than you can expect from a level 1. It works well. When we started M4, Rinaldo was level 6, Eanos was 4 and Eanos turn came when we were walking naked in a tunnel, trying to escape.

I think that is a good way to calculate. Half the gap is covered in one adventure, that will be even more true in higher level, when time XP will be limited for 8th level. If someone want to play the mentor/sidekick, no problem, I've found it was an interesting experience with Eanos, and actually, my two other characters are mostly playing teh sidekick because they are 2 or three level behind the highest level of the group.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Half the gap is covered in one adventure

Actually, it will almost always be sooner than that at higher levels. Probably the main reason Eanos took the whole adventure to gain that much is that the XP chart gives no bonus XP from levels 1 through 3, so there's a discontinuity, and he still gained three levels to Rinaldo's one.

It's true that levels per adventure is also highly important. At higher levels, a PC two levels behind will catch up to the PC (not all the way, but enough to hit the same level together for a while) after one level for the higher PC and three for the lower. So for an adventure where you only level up once, like M3, it might indeed take the whole adventure for a complete catch-up, but for an adventure where the PCs gain multiple levels, like Crux of the Matter, you don't even get the whole adventure ahead.

 

[orsal]

Let's pretend that we used your idea and eliminated Leadership.

Used my idea... and eliminated Leadership? WTF? Do I understand correctly that you are claiming it is my idea to eliminate Leadership? When did I ever suggest that?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Used my idea... and eliminated Leadership? WTF? Do I understand correctly that you are claiming it is my idea to eliminate Leadership? When did I ever suggest that?

I thought you were saying that the typical character/cohort relationship should be described by two PCs, one of lower level? I figured you thought that meant there was no need for Leadership except for out-of-game NPC support networks.

 

[orsal]

I thought you were saying that the typical character/cohort relationship should be described by two PCs, one of lower level? I figured you thought that meant there was no need for Leadership except for out-of-game NPC support networks.

I'm saying that that's a plausible and reasonable arrangement for two PCs to set up, if both their players are interested. I'm not saying it needs to be the only way to have a cohort. Some players may come with ideas for character development that are best served by having a cohort, even if their isn't an appropriate PC cohort around, so there could still be a use for Leadership. I don't see that having a cohort should require finding a player interested in being a cohort. Nevertheless, I think it could be very interesting, and well within the spirit of LEW, for two PCs to develop a mentor/sidekick relationship on their own.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'm saying that that's a plausible and reasonable arrangement for two PCs to set up, if both their players are interested. I'm not saying it needs to be the only way to have a cohort. Some players may come with ideas for character development that are best served by having a cohort, even if their isn't an appropriate PC cohort around, so there could still be a use for Leadership. I don't see that having a cohort should require finding a player interested in being a cohort. Nevertheless, I think it could be very interesting, and well within the spirit of LEW, for two PCs to develop a mentor/sidekick relationship on their own.

Ahhhh, okay. In that case, instead of being vehemently opposed to your idea, I agree with you that it could be an interesting alternative. Though I do think that's it's unlikely to be feasible beyond the lowest levels.