Legends and Lore April 2, 2012

[DEFCON 1]

It really feels like these polls are self-fulfilling; as if they are trying to prompt you for the answers they want to hear.

Or the other possibility is that they've gathered enough data on the subject up to this point to fairly accurately come to a reasonable idea, and the results of the poll end up confirming what they've already theorized.

I mean come on... is there anyone here who will actually cop to voting on a poll answer that matched what Mearls' suggested was what their data pointed to... not because it was what they actually felt, but because it's what the poll suggested they vote for? Anyone really want to admit to being a mindless sheep?

Now of course, what will happen is that people will come on and say "No, no... *I* voted the way I actually felt... but it's the other people who are the mindless sheep and voted exactly in the way WotC wanted them to, thus self-fulfilling the prophecy." Basically throw all the other players under the bus rather than just admit that perhaps WotC's data might not be so far off in reality after all based on the middle-ground of players in the game.

Cause that just makes each player have to admit to themselves that whatever screwy way they play the game probably isn't even CLOSE to what most other people do. And that in the end... WotC won't be able to cater D&DN specifically TO THEM. Their special-snowflake way of playing won't be the default game being made. Hard to admit that to yourself, I know... but is what everyone is going to have to do in the end.

 

[Dizlag]

I'm having a hard time with this article right off the bat.


Playing to 12th level does not imply a a few months. I know people whose campaigns have them level once a year, and they're level 10. I am always amazed at the number of people here who say that they've played the same character for near on a decade.

How long it takes to get to level 12, and how long a player wants to play a character depend on a incredible sum of factors. Quality of campaign, quality of players, quality of character, ect... I don't like where this misinformation is seemingly headed.

For the poll, "over 20th level" was the only answer I could give. I'm ready to leave a character behind when I'm ready. There's no rhyme or reason to it. Usually it's because I didn't put enough effort into a character. There are others I've been forced to leave behind(due to death) that I still love to this day, and would re-create in a heartbeat given the chance. Where's the poll option for that?

To the second poll, 2 hours a week? Jeebus that's barely time to sit down! I raid in WoW for longer than that 4 days a week! When I sit down to the D&D table, I play for 6-8 hours. If everyone is free, we often have all-nighters! At two hours a week, even my fastest progressing games would take YEARS to complete.

I'm really starting to feel like the design of the new edition is aiming for a slam-bam thank-you-ma'am style. Who really plays D&D for 2 hours a week? Yeesh.

To the second question: really there's no universal answer for this, and there shouldn't be. Some games may go to castles, some games may stay so-so adventurers, some games may go into godhood! This should be determined by the game design of the DM, and the wants of the players.

This is how I feel exactly.

Dizlag

 

[I'm A Banana]

But, that's the thing. If you try to decouple level from in game power, it gets tricky. After all, if my character is a high level lord, for example, and he's 3rd level, well, he should have the wealth on hand to deck himself out at a much, much higher level. It's not like he should be following the wealth by level guidelines at all. So, you run into balance issues right off the bat.

It strikes me that the Tiers-As-Treasure idea posted about in another thread resolves this.

Most normal folks are probably Zero Tier. You can rule a kingdom, or an empire, or whatever, without having to be someone special and destined. You can be a Level 1 Commoner (aka: not worthy of statting out) and just be lucky and maybe not a bad leader. Your wealth can't buy you anything above Zero Tier. Okay, you get crown jewels and silk tapestries and even a big statue of you, but you're not getting, say, a magic weapon (though you might be able to afford some healing potions, or some anti-poison salves, or some other consumable, low-level, common magic commodity).

That's because you can't get a magic weapon without being at least, say, Heroic Tier. Magic weapons just aren't available for sale. They're only things that those folks sung about in taverns seem to find. Your wealth as king doesn't buy anything out of your Tier. Maybe if you're a particularly skilled and famous king, you can be a Hero, and then you get a magic sword that is famous as well.

Oddly, this handles the Resurrection Problem, too. If Resurrection is a Champion or Epic tier spell, then normal kings -- even very famous kings -- can't just buy it. Things out of Zero Tier are not purchasable at shops or makable at forges by zero-tier folks.

Alernately, though, they can be for higher-level folks. If you're a Heroic Tier Dwarf, and you wanna make a magic axe, you can. Or if your family heirloom sword is used by your Heroic Tier PC, it can be magical, even if when your weird uncle Filbert picks it up, he can't do anything with it.

Man. This idea is fixin' problems left and right..

 

[hanez]

Originally Posted by Hussar
But, that's the thing. If you try to decouple level from in game power, it gets tricky. After all, if my character is a high level lord, for example, and he's 3rd level, well, he should have the wealth on hand to deck himself out at a much, much higher level. It's not like he should be following the wealth by level guidelines at all. So, you run into balance issues right off the bat.

If the DM lets you be a 3rd level high lord, then he must have rules to deal with this? I personally would start a character out as a noble, and let him slowly get to king (by say 10th level). But if I wanted him to start as a powerful king at 0th level, thats fine.... but I don't think the rules should expect this to actually happen. Let the DM handle his wonky idea.

 

[Andor]

Most normal folks are probably Zero Tier. You can rule a kingdom, or an empire, or whatever, without having to be someone special and destined. You can be a Level 1 Commoner (aka: not worthy of statting out) and just be lucky and maybe not a bad leader. Your wealth can't buy you anything above Zero Tier. Okay, you get crown jewels and silk tapestries and even a big statue of you, but you're not getting, say, a magic weapon (though you might be able to afford some healing potions, or some anti-poison salves, or some other consumable, low-level, common magic commodity).

That's because you can't get a magic weapon without being at least, say, Heroic Tier. Magic weapons just aren't available for sale. They're only things that those folks sung about in taverns seem to find. Your wealth as king doesn't buy anything out of your Tier.

That might work for you. I cannot conceive of how I could find that a plausible world however. You might be a King, and therefore command a countries worth of land, people and a military. But you can't get a magic potion. Ted the hero farmer can however because fate likes him? So the King has Ted arrested and executed on trumped up charges and now he has a potion. Problem solved.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That might work for you. I cannot conceive of how I could find that a plausible world however. You might be a King, and therefore command a countries worth of land, people and a military. But you can't get a magic potion. Ted the hero farmer can however because fate likes him? So the King has Ted arrested and executed on trumped up charges and now he has a potion. Problem solved.

Not exactly. First, I made a specific exception for consumable, common, commodified magic items, like potions and scrolls and whatnot.

SECOND, if Ted has a magic sword because he's the fated hero of the land, and the King arrests him, guess what happens? Same thing that happens in all the stories. Fate isn't just going to let the Hero of Destiny rot in a prison. Ted gets out. The King gets killed. Ted gets his sword back, and the kingdom is without a leader now.

Tiers are, in some ways, codified narrative power. They explain why a True Hero surrounded by a dozen men with crossbows and grappled by an assassin with a blade to his throat doesn't have much to fear.

Of course, a Common Ted has PLENTY to fear. But there's a difference between Common Ted and Ted The Hero. Fate does not intervene on behalf of Common Ted. Ted The Hero, however, has bigger things to worry about than some mundane king on his mundane throne and his petty attempts to get a magic sword for himself. Ted the Hero is destined for legends.

In Tiers-As-Treasure lingo, Common Ted is the lowest tier (along with the king), but Ted the Hero is Heroic Tier (and the king is not).

 

[Janaxstrus]

Not exactly. First, I made a specific exception for consumable, common, commodified magic items, like potions and scrolls and whatnot.

SECOND, if Ted has a magic sword because he's the fated hero of the land, and the King arrests him, guess what happens? Same thing that happens in all the stories. Fate isn't just going to let the Hero of Destiny rot in a prison. Ted gets out. The King gets killed. Ted gets his sword back, and the kingdom is without a leader now.

Tiers are, in some ways, codified narrative power. They explain why a True Hero surrounded by a dozen men with crossbows and grappled by an assassin with a blade to his throat doesn't have much to fear.

Of course, a Common Ted has PLENTY to fear. But there's a difference between Common Ted and Ted The Hero. Fate does not intervene on behalf of Common Ted. Ted The Hero, however, has bigger things to worry about than some mundane king on his mundane throne and his petty attempts to get a magic sword for himself. Ted the Hero is destined for legends.

In Tiers-As-Treasure lingo, Common Ted is the lowest tier (along with the king), but Ted the Hero is Heroic Tier (and the king is not).

Sounds like a lot of railroading and deus ex machina to me. Not the style of game we play. The dice fall where the dice fall.

 

[hanez]

Not exactly. First, I made a specific exception for consumable, common, commodified magic items, like potions and scrolls and whatnot.

SECOND, if Ted has a magic sword because he's the fated hero of the land, and the King arrests him, guess what happens? Same thing that happens in all the stories. Fate isn't just going to let the Hero of Destiny rot in a prison. Ted gets out. The King gets killed. Ted gets his sword back, and the kingdom is without a leader now.

Tiers are, in some ways, codified narrative power. They explain why a True Hero surrounded by a dozen men with crossbows and grappled by an assassin with a blade to his throat doesn't have much to fear.

Of course, a Common Ted has PLENTY to fear. But there's a difference between Common Ted and Ted The Hero. Fate does not intervene on behalf of Common Ted. Ted The Hero, however, has bigger things to worry about than some mundane king on his mundane throne and his petty attempts to get a magic sword for himself. Ted the Hero is destined for legends.

In Tiers-As-Treasure lingo, Common Ted is the lowest tier (along with the king), but Ted the Hero is Heroic Tier (and the king is not).

Sounds like a lot of railroading and deus ex machina to me too. Love it though, sounds like D&D to me and its exactly the type of game I run and expect my DMs to run. Personally, Ive had my full of DMs who run modules like its a minis game and expect a great story and everyone to have a great time just because they are following the rules.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Sounds like a lot of railroading and deus ex machina to me. Not the style of game we play. The dice fall where the dice fall.

It doesn't imply railroading or deus ex machina.

It explains why town guards have 5 hit points and deal 1d6 damage with their attacks and why Ted the Hero has over 30 hit points and deals 1d10+5 damage with his, even though he's just a kid from a farm with an heirloom sword. It explains why the locks on the jail are common-quality locks, but Ted has a +5 to lockpicking, even if he's never picked a lock before in his life. It explains why the king is a 4 HP Expert with some skill in Diplomacy, and how Ted the Hero, at level 1, can kill him and take his stuff.

It's an in-universe explanation for the nebulous awesomeness that comes with being a different class of being.

And since it's within a DM's power to give out Heroism (if they do at all), they can keep Ted The Would-Be Hero at Common Tier forever, no matter how many levels he gains. And in that case, the King can swipe whatever the king wants. But in that case, Ted doesn't have that magic sword, so Ted doesn't have anything the King can't get himself.

I'm beginning to think you peeps aren't thinking about +n swords properly.

 

[Andor]

It's an in-universe explanation for the nebulous awesomeness that comes with being a different class of being.

If I wanted to play exalted, I would play exalted. I want to play D&D. An Orc with an axe is a threat to a first level character.

Hell, Conan wouldn't sneer at a dozen crossbowmen surrounding him. 1st level characters should not have hairier balls than Conan the Barbarian.

Narrative causality is ok in very limited doses. Intrusive narrative causality leads to the scene from diskworld where the guards knew million to one odds come up 9 times out of ten, so they tried handicapping someone trying an already stupid stunt to get to that million to one sweet spot....