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Legends and Lore - The Genius of D&D

TwinBahamut

First Post
Oh, to the contrary, it's a simple, strightforward system that allows for character concept to guide the mechanics during creation and avoids the funneling nature of a class-based system. By building on Ability Score bonuses, it retains the sense of characters as individuals while, through the Paths, allows them to pursue options during gameplay that cover any role in a typical Medieval Fantasy milleau even as it maintains character individuality. Every character creation and advancement choice by the player is tied to their own narrative, built specifically on that flavor and inspiration. Because it is also a ten level system, it avoids the bonus bloat normally associated with systems that try to stretch the d20 resolution mechanic beyond what it naturally fits.
...a ten level system? Where did that come from? You didn't mention it in the post I responded to. And you have such clear terminology for it and such a lot of glittering generalities. Honestly, it sounds more like you are trying to sell us some personal ruleset rather than actually argue for what might work or not work for the next edition of D&D. Anyways, arguing that your system is beautiful and perfect is pointless when you have not even clearly explained it. I can't make heads or tails of what you actually mean by phrases like "tied to their own narrative".

Anyways, there are a lot of reasons for me to dislike a system like you describe. For one, it seems to be heavily built upon Ability Scores, which I consider to be the most boringly mechanical and least flavorful of any aspect of a D&D character. Honestly, while I've argued that D&D can never separate itself from ability scores (because they are a rare, genuine sacred cow), I consider ability scores to be a negative source of pointless problems in D&D, rather than a useful tool for the game.

Also, you seem to hold some form of "free form" character development to be an ideal, but I don't. Classes work. They can be a source of inspiration, they help simplify choices, they enable a wide variety of mechanics without bloat, and they let designers focus on making popular archetypes work well. In a classless system, flavorlessness becomes a huge issue, and the stated advantage of letting people play anything they want is almost always a pipe dream. The reality is that you only can play a much more limited range of stuff than a class system with any degree of effectiveness, and even then it is more trouble than it is worth.

Generally, I think it is always better to make a small number of very meaningful choices (like race and class), rather than to make a lot of little choices.
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Archetype.

It's all archetype.

Every single frickin' element is archetype.

It's just secondary and tertiary archetype. And that emphasis is going to differ depending on the player, the character, and the day.

Strong Dwarf Fighter one day.

Fighter who is Also a Strong Dwarf another day.

A Dwarf who is a Strong Fighter the day after.

Which element leaps to the front?

It depends: are you killin' a hated dwarf foe that day? Are you fightin' monsters with yer muscles? Are you climbing mountains with them?

It's archetypes the whole way down!
 
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Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
...a ten level system? Where did that come from?


From my own solution. It is a system I've been building and will be OGL, so whether or not WotC would want to import some of it is moot unless they adopt the OGL for their own efforts moving forward. ;)


Anyways, there are a lot of reasons for me to dislike a system like you describe. For one, it seems to be heavily built upon Ability Scores, which I consider to be the most boringly mechanical and least flavorful of any aspect of a D&D character.


Indeed. Treating Ability Scores as mere mechanical functions of a game system can lead to exactly what you describe, however if they are treated as part and parcel of character background and the root of advancement going forward based on in-game narrative choices made by the players, they are the essence of flavor.


Classes work. They can be a source of inspiration, they help simplify choices, they enable a wide variety of mechanics without bloat, and they let designers focus on making popular archetypes work well.


Classes can work in a game where one doesn't mind a certain amount of homogenization from character to character, but when someone wants games where characters are primarily individuals, they tend to restrict that creation process.


In a classless system, flavorlessness becomes a huge issue, and the stated advantage of letting people play anything they want is almost always a pipe dream. The reality is that you only can play a much more limited range of stuff than a class system with any degree of effectiveness, and even then it is more trouble than it is worth.


Depends on how much the system supports individual choice and engenders growth of character through gameplay rather than merely holding out mechanical benefits as the primary goal of play.


Generally, I think it is always better to make a small number of very meaningful choices (like race and class), rather than to make a lot of little choices.


I prefer to think that there can be many meaningful choices and that each is supported through character growth within the game leading to a more immersive overall gaming experience due to a greater investment in character creation and advancement.
 

Invisible Stalker

First Post
Level and Class above everything else.

What are you playing? I'm a twelfth level Vice-President.

No level and class= no D&D

Race would be next and I'd like them have a notable mechanical effect on the game.

On gender, our female group member agrees to the -2 STR penalty for female characters in exchange for a +2 in INT. :hmm:

Ability scores should be the final major part of the equation. I still tend to go for fate guiding character creation. I roll the six ability scores, THEN come up with the character concept.

Feats and skills are surplus to requirements for me. They're optional not essential.
 



howandwhy99

Adventurer
Class is #1 with a bullet. In fact, Levels (which at one time could have been called Ranks) referred only to Class level and were understood to be different measures when used for other factors in the game. Experience Points too were simply a matter of class. Two classes meant two XP totals. Class is #1 because it is the entire scope of the game for the player who is currently attempting to puzzle out how to perform it. The better one does, the more XP they receive. Is it the only means of gaining influence over the world? No, but your abilities within the class were specifically designed in relation to the world design to empower the player to explore that scope. A fighter could try exploring magic, but their magic use was far less than the magic-users. This gave the game niches and focus, while leaving enough overlap to avoid separate play.

Race, while it is definitely #3, does not beat out Ability Scores. Race defines the limits a PC can progress in a class. It also defines the limits of one's Ability Scores. AD&D included these A.S. minimums and maximums, but I'd suggest core playable races are limited to those which can be conveyed throughout the 3-18 ability scores. (The high end extraordinary %ile scores should probably be dropped in some cases). Non-core custom races are not always going to fit within the 3-18 spectrum. Those that don't overlap at all don't get to be playable races at all. Not many people want to play a rock with the INT of a rock, the DEX of a rock, or the movement of a rock. Is it a race? Sure, but it falls outside the spectrum of the game's scope. Demi-human races, heck, all races had all the definitions the default scope human class did, but they had their own unique abilities that fell outside the human scope. They add flavor to the game. However, as the rock example shows, they need for them to overlap the human default Ability Score range still places them in 3rd.

#2 Ability Scores. These define the scope of the game after Class. They are pragmatically set up to represent adult human abilities. This is because humans are assumed to be the players of the game. If you've ever played D&D with a rock, it's not quite the same experience as playing with another human I can tell you. I grant 3e raised the benefits of ability scores so high in relation to the rolls they influenced that making AS's matter more is a scary thought. The reason they were rolled earlier though was that they represented, like every roll in the game, something running through the structure of the game world. In the case of 3-18 they represent the adult human distributive pattern of ability. Everyone rolled these, even NPCs (but only when the score needed to be known for them). NPC races rolled differently for the distributions relevant to each one of those races. Tying AS's to multiple subsystems in the game allowed just six scores to have a widespread influence over every aspect of the game regardless of any class's scope. The problem in 3e was that the scores were turned into a default bonus & penalty spectrum uniform for every subsystem they were tied to (almost, there were some exceptions). Keeping them balanced in AD&D meant tying each other system to them on their own terms rather than a blanket effect.

#4 Customizable elements were largely tied to class, race, or ability scores. Alignment was a choice, but could be limited by class. Saving throws and Hit Points were predetermined by class. Movement so to by race. Languages were affected by all three, but were still choices. Coin was separate altogether as well as all equipment purchases, though Advanced D&D did differentiate here. Plus some classes required a items to really work functionally well like magic-users and spell books. All other customization was done through play. I know that to modern day eyes the game looks like a strait jacket in some respects with few choices after PC creation. But the subclasses are really the more limited if only because they were more highly focused. The thing is, a player defined their abilities through play and could effectively create their own subclass, which they could then train a youngster in to start. Yeah, that means adventuring your way into becoming a Paladin with those powers or a Ranger or anything F-M related really. Call it Feather Dancers or whatever with all those named maneuvers you made up along the way. These weren't bought and then used because the book said so. The player created them within the scope of their class, made of it what they wanted to be and do, and, with a little negotiation, the ref worked these into the system behind the screen. Drawing these #4 elements out into the rules in front the screen is what strait jackets customization IMO. It's not that that they are unimportant, but that they remain within 1-3's scope of the game so we don't get PCs who are rocks "with stripes!"

Lastly, character and characterization are largely irrelevant to role playing. That may no longer be common usage for the term, but the game was originally based upon definitions stemming from the 40s to the 70s. The idea was, we are addressing an imagined reality in the brain of another person. We can explore it without changing our personalities. In fact, in a lot of D&D play most exploration is referred to with I and We. It is me and us who are in the imagined situation at hand, not someone else. As a thinking game we discern how to accomplish our goals. The question, "What would someone else do who isn't me?" is not only not required for role playing, it goes against the original definition. That doesn't mean different definitions aren't applicable or fun, only that for understanding the intent and design behind D&D we are better off using the sole one in place when the game was created.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
I got this weird feeling reading the article, like I was agreeing with everything as self-evident for D&D, but that the actualy implementation was going to leave me going "Gaaa! I agreed to that?"

Er, maybe it's just me but these theory only articles leave me without any sense of what's happening at Team D&D or what input Monte Cook is seeking.
 

Hussar

Legend
HowandWhy99 said:
Lastly, character and characterization are largely irrelevant to role playing. That may no longer be common usage for the term, but the game was originally based upon definitions stemming from the 40s to the 70s. The idea was, we are addressing an imagined reality in the brain of another person. We can explore it without changing our personalities. In fact, in a lot of D&D play most exploration is referred to with I and We. It is me and us who are in the imagined situation at hand, not someone else. As a thinking game we discern how to accomplish our goals. The question, "What would someone else do who isn't me?" is not only not required for role playing, it goes against the original definition. That doesn't mean different definitions aren't applicable or fun, only that for understanding the intent and design behind D&D we are better off using the sole one in place when the game was created.

Sorry for the derailment here, but, this just bugs me. H&W, how sure are you of your definitions? At least in teaching there is a difference between simulation and role play. In simulation, you are yourself in a given situation, in role play, you are pretending to be someone else in a situation.

I'm not sure where you derive your definitions, but, they are not the way those terms are used in teaching circles. And this might go a long way towards why you have trouble getting people to accept your position. Role play games are about role play, not simulation.
 

Blackwind

Explorer
Ask a D&D player, no matter what his favored edition, about his character, and the first thing out of his mouth will probably be "I'm an elven ranger," "I'm a dwarven cleric," "I'm a halfling rogue."

In a classless game, the most important thing is your Concept. That's true in D&D as well, but in D&D, I think most players tend to conceptualize their characters in terms of Race/Class first. As in... "I think I'm going to make an elven paladin this time." If someone just says, "I'm a wizard," they are usually implying that their character is human, because otherwise they would have mentioned the character race.

Occasionally, you will get more detailed responses like, "I'm a 10th level dwarven ranger" or "I'm a Chaotic Neutral Thief-Acrobat" (sorry). So level and alignment are also important in defining a D&D character.

But in general, the combination of Race and Class is the core of a D&D character, and I for one believe it should (and will) stay that way.

FWIW, I basically agree with Monte about the order of importance of the various character elements. I think that he and Mearls have both seen the true genius of the 6 ability scores and their potential within the task resolution system of D&D. Skills, feats, and (shudder) powers are totally secondary to ability scores. You want to dive into a roll to avoid the poison darts shooting out of the wall? Dex check!
 

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