Tide of Iron was one of the better 4e Fighter Powers - very elegant and just the sort of thing a fighter should be doing. I like it, but I think it becomes meaningless when decoupled from the grid.
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D&D 5E Legends & Lore Article 4/1/14 (Fighter Maneuvers)
- Thread starter Thaumaturge
- Start date
That can be prevented by giving such creatures a large enough bonus against it.
But apparently something like this is now considered "unfun".
Remathilis
Legend
My friend way playing a 4e fighter (in the PHB only era of August 2008). His two at-wills were Tide of Iron and Cleave.
He was in town when a mugger (a level 1 brute) jumped him in an alleyway. A level 1 foe vs a level 1 PC mano-e-mano in a 20-by-20 area. Should be easy?
He missed with his encounter power, and since there was no other foes, used Tide of Iron to push the enemy back. Unfortunately, he didn't have his sword with him, so he was relying on a backup dagger.
Every round, he used Tide of Iron, hit, and did 1d4+3 damage. To a foe with 30 hp. He Tide-of-Ironed the guy seven times (not counting misses), pushing him clockwise around the room (did one and a half walls before the guy fell).
The absurdity of watching a guy get pushed along 1 and 1/2 walls of a room was enough to call it a night for that game.
OmegaMan950
First Post
Any other edition and it would have just been the fighter and the mugger standing there trading blows. You could use the scenery or try another action like in 3e or previous editions. 4E gave out more options - it didn't take any away - and a boring fight is going to be a boring fight.
The Human Target
Adventurer
Sage Genesis
First Post
First of all, it sounds like this fight took about 10 rounds if not more - in other words, roughly a minute. If you can't imagine people moving 30' or so in a minute then I invite you to watch any action movie or maybe a boxing match or two.
Second, the player explicitly chose to use Tide of Iron. He could've used a normal basic attack with the exact same chance to hit and damage. In other words, he shoved the enemy around on purpose. Don't blame the game for what the player chose to do with it. People have many options available to them besides just using the abilities on their sheet.
Third, the stats of monsters (including level 1 brute muggers) are made with a certain function in mind: to provide a fun challenge for a party of PCs. A single fighter with just his dagger is no such thing. It's a (minor) failing of 4e but it simply doesn't do duels like this well, it's an action-adventure game built around a party. The DM never should've done an encounter like this.
Fourth, what kind of alleyway is shaped like a 20 by 20 foot room?
Fifth, even if our hypothetical cube-alley is shaped like that, a 4-square by 4-square battlefield is far too tiny by 4e standards. And too boring as well, as it sounds like there was no special terrain, no features to make use of, nothing to stunt or improvise with.
All in all it sounds like an encounter custom-tailored to make the least possible use of 4e's strengths and focus on hitting the weak spots as much as humanly possible. A skill challenge to notice a pick-pocket in time, chase him down, and intimidate him into giving you some of his stash would've been easier to do, more in keeping with the game's intended use, and loads more fun.
Klaus
First Post
Well, Mearls said that the maneuvers are fueled by Superiority Dice, and that these dice are regained with a rest. Going by the last open playtest, this would mean that a Fighter can use a special maneuver 2-5 times during a combat, depending on level.
Klaus
First Post
You could either have spiced up the room a bit (perhaps the fighter pushed the mugger into a brazier (level appropriate fire damage, save for half), or onto a pile of objects (he'd be knocked prone, save negates). And by the time the outcome is inevitable (the PC will win), you could simply skip to the end ("do you want him dead or unconscious?").
ExploderWizard
Hero
If every location where combat takes place has to be set up like WWE arena event then there is something else wrong going on. The base problem going on is that the combat, at its roots, is abstract hp ablation that should be resolved simply and quickly. Drawing it out with bloated numbers, fancy moves, and exotic battlefields is just putting lipstick on a pig.
The key to non-boring combat? Either lose the abstraction OR don't focus on the details. This is why a 5 minute fight in a plain room using B/X can be exciting and why a 90 minute fight with multiple foes in even a plain area can be exciting using GURPS advanced grid combat. One system doesn't support detail well at the core and the other does.
Klaus
First Post
Nice hyperbole there.
Using the environment in a fight only brings the roleplaying into combat. Knocking over a table, slamming your foe against the wall and keeping him there, kicking a waste bucked over, all these details bring the environment to life, and by thinking about them, the player gets to experience the fight as his character would. These details bring the environment to life, they contribute to the sense that the dungeon is inhabited, that these creatures exist beyond the numbers that must be reduced to 0. This is by no means "setting up an arena event", but rather providing tools for the roleplaying to occur, and for the damage to be exciting. If you don't bring your world to life, combats will be boring, whether you're playing Tunnels & Trolls or Rolemaster, beacuse you're only playing the numbers.
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