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Legends & Lore: Loyal Opposition

Xris Robin

First Post
I'm not sure what I want in a skill system, but I know what I don't want. Right now, if I make a skill check for a running jump, regardless of my actual skill, I have a variation of up to 20 feet. Every time. The d20 is too swingy for me. I don't want to be able to jump one foot on this roll, and then 20 feet on the next, it's just ridiculous to me.
 

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delericho

Legend
I'm not sure what I want in a skill system, but I know what I don't want. Right now, if I make a skill check for a running jump, regardless of my actual skill, I have a variation of up to 20 feet. Every time. The d20 is too swingy for me. I don't want to be able to jump one foot on this roll, and then 20 feet on the next, it's just ridiculous to me.

The jump rules in d20 (since 3.0e) are utterly broken.

A better approach would be to set the distance a character can jump at half his move, and use the environmental conditions to set the jump DC (per page 42). For every 10 points by which he beats the DC, he can jump one additional square.

(Assume the conditions for an Olympic event make for a DC 5 jump. That way, a result of 35 makes for the world record, which feels about right to me.)
 

keterys

First Post
Strictly speaking, I think his system is +10 or more per skill 'level'. The "one level up or down is automatic pass/fail" thing would work with +100 modifier/DC per level just as well as +10.
No, really, it's +/-10 as long as we're talking normal characters (ie, not ones who have a -2 or lower, or +10 or higher stat modifier). It was predictable last article (check last article's thread) and it's what he said this article, if you actually dig out the math of what was said..

An untrained person can try an untrained check at DC 10, and has a chance to do a trained (novice-+10) check at DC 20, but _can't_ make a journeyman check (note that it would be DC 30 by my simplifcation, which is impossible using just stat mod)... and the -10s let the journeyman (+30) automatically succeed at any lower skill check (DC 30 or lower), just like he said.

Personally, I'm iffy on the idea of "this random BS to make things easier effectively changes the DC by 10" - that's a bit much, but I think the concept could work fine as long as the +/-10s were given out sparingly.

Ie, beam swaying cause of earthquake - +10 that up! Guy is carrying a staff for balance? Meh.

Re: jump rules - yeah, I like the idea of just having a jump speed at this point. With this system, it could just as easily be 2 + trained level is your max jump (or whatever satisfies people's olympic sensibilities), cannot exceed your speed per single move action, or similar.
 

Scribble

First Post
Balesir;5665222I think you're right. It's a shame that the whole "blag the DM for prizes" thing was what I came to loathe about D&D many years ago. 4E finally fixed it said:
in a different way[/I] - but that doesn't even seem to be on the agenda.

It's interesting... I still haven't completely decided how I feel about it yet...

It seems to be an attempt at a compromise. On the one hand you have a fair amount of DM fiat style, but on the other that's not the only way to do something, you still have the ability to work the rules so to speak.

Gamers seem to be somewhat polarized though... Not sure how well a compromise would work. :p
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
DM fiat, at least part of the time, works when the DM is consistent. And when a game isn't all fiat, but well-targeted fiat, you can really get something that sings, feels "real", but doesn't get bogged down in too much detail. So how do you get that?

If the DM is a jerk and intends to stay that way, you don't. But then you have a bigger problem than consistency anyway.

If the DM tries hard to be consistent, and he starts with something like 1st ed. AD&D--then the DM puts a lot of work into it. He reads gaming materials and historical data to extrapolate from. He thinks about it. He puts in processes to flag inconsistencies and correct them over time. He takes notes. After he has done this for several adventures, he gets his system down and gets gradually more consistent from there on. This is how a lot of us learned it back in the day. :)

So what about the DM that isn't a jerk, but doesn't necessarily have the inclination to do what it takes to learn that consistency? You can either put in a rules framework to help him enforce consistency, or you can try to teach him how to be consistent with the fiat. 3E leaned heavily on the rules side. 4E leaned even heavier on the rules side for certain pieces while simultaneously trying to build a framework for other pieces. Thus was born the skill challenge.

Whether such a framework can be developed that will help a person replicate the structure and freedom of that hard won AD&D knowledge without so much effort, I don't know. It would be rather useful if you could get it, though. :cool:
 

Scribble

First Post
If the DM tries hard to be consistent, and he starts with something like 1st ed. AD&D--then the DM puts a lot of work into it. He reads gaming materials and historical data to extrapolate from. He thinks about it. He puts in processes to flag inconsistencies and correct them over time. He takes notes. After he has done this for several adventures, he gets his system down and gets gradually more consistent from there on. This is how a lot of us learned it back in the day. :)

You might just be exaggerating to make a point, but I think this kind of over-hypes the importance of consistency.

I mean yeah- overall constancy is important... Who wants to play in a game where nothing is consistent ever, but changes here and there I don't think matter too much.


In my "career" as DM of some of the older editions, I noticed the people who took the most stock in absolute constancy also tended to be power gamers. :p (Obviously this is not a scientific observation or anything.)
 

Balesir

Adventurer
DM fiat, at least part of the time, works when the DM is consistent. And when a game isn't all fiat, but well-targeted fiat, you can really get something that sings, feels "real", but doesn't get bogged down in too much detail. So how do you get that?

If the DM is a jerk and intends to stay that way, you don't. But then you have a bigger problem than consistency anyway.

If the DM tries hard to be consistent, and he starts with something like 1st ed. AD&D--then the DM puts a lot of work into it. He reads gaming materials and historical data to extrapolate from. He thinks about it. He puts in processes to flag inconsistencies and correct them over time. He takes notes. After he has done this for several adventures, he gets his system down and gets gradually more consistent from there on. This is how a lot of us learned it back in the day. :)
Yeah, yeah - I did that apprenticeship from around 1977 to 1999 or so. I went through all the phases - the "biggest, baddest dungeon dude", the "my world is a jewel" phase, the "story is everyrthing" era - the whole nine yards.

Eventually, though, I have come to the belief that GM fiat (note both parts of that - both are important) is hardly ever a good way to frame a set of rules. Before writing this off, consider:

Let's define the game "Rules" (capital 'R') as representing the "physics" of the game reality - not necessarily in the way real world physics do, but in the sense that they describe how the game world actually works. A system that invokes "GM fiat" is not a set of Rules, per se. It's a statement about where the Rules dwell - they dwell in the mind of the GM. How the GM visualises the game world represents the actual game world "physics" - the actual Rules of the game.

The players, meanwhile, are supposed to play characters who have (generally) lived in the game "reality" all their lives. That they should be ignorant of how the world works seems extraordinary in the extreme. That they should have to guess about the real efficacy of their own powers and abilities seems bizarre.

I propose, therefore, that the players, as well as the GM, should always have "inside knowledge" of the game Rules. I don't think we need to be prescriptive about how that "insight" is ensured though. Two possibilities spring to mind - both are evident in existing roleplaying systems:

1) The Rules of the world are defined by the rules of the game; the game system describes reasonably well how characters interact with the world in explicit terms. D&D 4E and GURPS are both examples where the majority of game situations can be played out without resort to DM/GM fiat or other arbitrary Rules creation during play.

2) The rules of the world are generated via collaboration and, if necessary, systemic resolution between all of the players - including the GM, if there is one. PrimeTime Adventures and Universalis are games I have played where this is the mechanism used to decide in-game outcomes based on the aesthetic/dramatic sense and tastes of the full gaming group.

Either of these methods can work fine; the first is better if some oppositional tension between players is desired (e.g. "gamist" D&D) or if mystery and investigation is to be a component in play (Call of Cthulhu, for example). The second is better if the desire is to build a world based on aesthetic and "artistic" values - worlds trying to be "realistic", for example, or trying to generate "Story Now" via Narrativist play focus.

For me, though, at least, the place for a game which relies on the aesthetic taste of one person only has narrowed to almost nothing. Games for teaching children how roleplaying works, maybe - provided they are not carried on too long, teaching "bad habits".

Such games do seem to remain curiously popular, however - mainly, I phant'sy, with GMs... But maybe I'm being overly harsh.
 

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