Lethal Combat, Take 2

[AbeTheGnome]

It concerns me that there's next to nothing that a knife-wielder or an archer can do to really deal damage with a single attack. The case in point above was a Rogue, who has the SA option, but a knife Fighter can do no more than 1d4+str with a dagger (you can't even use PA with light weapons). This is not only unrealistic, it does a poor job at modeling cinematic combat. Think about Benicio del Toro's character in The Hunted. A skilled fighter can kill someone with a knife, with one or two precision strikes.

I've been toying with a variant WP/VP system. I know everyone seems to have a big problem with WP/VP, but since I haven't played SWd20, I guess they're not ruined for me. The system would work this way: if the attack roll beats a targets AC (Defense Class, in my system) by a margin of 20, the attack is a critical hit. Weapons with a higher crit range provide an attack bonus. For instance, daggers have a +1 to hit. Critical hits would do CON damage. Weapons with a x2 multiplier would deal normal damage (i.e. a longsword still deals 1d8, but it's reduced from CON). Weapons with x3 critical multipliers would deal x2 damage instead, and weapons with x4 multipliers would deal x3.

Keep in mind that this system would work in conjunction with other variant systems. Armor would give a DR value equal to its armor bonus, and would have no effect on AC (crits would bypass DR). PCs would be granted a Class Defense Bonus (based on REF saves, not BAB). The system is still very experimental, but it's aimed at solving these problems: excessively bold players who fight before they think, a single blow not being able to take down a character, and an inability to model realistic or cinematic combat. Please, give me constructive criticism.

 

[RigaMortus2]

If cinematics is what you are looking for, try True20. Even a level 1 character has a chance to kill a level 20 with a rusty dagger.

 

[llamatron2000]

No man goes to war wielding nothing more than a knife. A soldier would consider that -suicide-. To succeed with a knife, you've gotta have -training-. And finesse. Especially against an equal foe. A knife fighter is a finesse fighter. They're taking rogue levels, like it or not. They've gotta train to hit those vulnerable spots.

Just because the class is called fighter doesn't mean it covers all fighting styles. It just means it allows for optimized general fighting, feat combos and the like. More than likely, a knife fighter will be a fighter/rogue.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

Does anyone have any comments on the actual system that I presented?

 

[Land Outcast]

It's got some similarity with Ken Hood's Grim and Gritty, excrept:

RESOLVING ATTACKS
These are the rules for resolving attacks in the revised Grim-n-Gritty system.

The Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may apply to this roll.) Your opponent rolls a d20 and adds his defense bonus. (Other modifiers may apply to your opponent’s roll.) If your result equals or exceeds your target’s defense roll, you hit and deal damage.
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit.
Critical Hits: In the revised Grim-n-Gritty system, critical hits do not occur when you roll a certain number on the d20. Instead, they happen when you roll a certain amount of points higher than your target (usually 10 points). See the section on Critical Hits, below, for a more detailed description.
Immobile and Helpless Targets: Immobilized or helpless targets automatically roll a 1 on the defense roll.
Touch Attacks: Touch attacks gain a +4 attack bonus. (Since the revised Grim-n-Gritty rules already ignore armor and natural armor for purposes of determining a hit, this was a necessary modification.)

The Damage Roll
When your attack succeeds, you deal damage.
You roll the damage dice of the attack. Apply modifiers for enhancement bonuses, Strength, and the like. For every point you beat your opponent’s defense roll, add +1 to the damage inflicted. Apply a Size modifier (per table 5) to damage inflicted by melee weapons, unarmed strikes, and the natural physical attack forms of creatures.

Table 5: Damage Modifiers for Size
Size	    Damage
Fine	      -16
Diminutive   -12
Tiny	      -8
Small	      -4
Medium	      +0
Large	      +4
Huge	      +8
Gargantuan	  +12
Colossal	  +16

...

Critical Hits
If your attack roll beats your opponent’s roll by a certain amount, usually 10 or more points, you may inflict a critical hit. Critical hits let you inflict special conditions on your target (such as stunned or dazed), bypass bonuses to Soak, or disable body parts.

Determining Critical Threat Range
In the revised Grim-n-Gritty system, your critical threat range is the amount your attack roll has to exceed your opponent’s defense roll. If you reach this amount, you threaten a critical hit and roll to confirm it with a second attack v. defense roll. Use table 6 to determine a weapon’s Grim-n-Gritty threat range.

Table 7: Critical Threat Ranges
Original Threat Range	Grim-n-Gritty Threat Range
             20	                       10 or more
           19-20	              8 or more
           18-20	              6 or more 
           17-20	              4 or more 
           16-20	              2 or more
           15-20	         A successful hit

For example, you wield a two-handed sword. In the original rules, you would threaten a critical hit if you rolled a natural 19 or 20. In the Grim-n-Gritty system, you would threaten a critical hit if you rolled 8 or more points higher than your opponent’s defense result.

 

[Land Outcast]

The idea, as you can figure, is to transform combat into DEADLY, something characters won't approach unless necessary. (also: characters have "soak values" which reduces damage, armor increases soak)

 

[AbeTheGnome]

In regards to GnG, there are things I like and there are things I don't. I have looked at it, but I won't use it, mainly because PCs would never survive against an ogre or an evil sorcerer. One of the reasons people play DnD is for these combat scenarios. While I want them to think twice before entering combat, I don't want them to be cowards. I don't want a fight with an ogre to turn into a massacre.

 

[Land Outcast]

Otis rolls his damage: 33 points of damage. Warren dies instantly.
Good news! He doesn’t have to deal with a disabled head!
Bad news! He doesn’t have to deal with a head at all!

.

 

[igavskoga]

Abe-

The version of Grim and Gritty that I have read (I can't remember the exact title of it) introduced a concept of Relative Degree, in which the amount by which you beat your opponent's defense roll translated directly into a damage bonus. There were no critical threat ranges or modifiers.

I have long planned on augmenting this system in which I would use something close to "regular" D&D hit points and a ratio of damage conversion for relative degree. It also had guidelines on changing power attack and sneak attack to be more in line with the relative degree mechanic. By and large I rather liked it, and definitely intend on using it. It really seems to model the kind of damage based on skill rather than weapon model that you are looking for.

The reason I bring this up is that whenever I see any kind of post about wanting more lethal combat (including yours), and read the descriptions of what folks intend or want, I always think to myself - "Why don't they just use/modify Relative Degree?" IMO, its a good model and is very flexible to tweaking.

Was this the version you'd looked at? If not, when I get home today I can go hunt around my notes for whatever the Actual title was.

As a side note, I'm not sure which version was quoted above, but the idea of taking crit threat range and/or modifier, and translating it into a threshold one must beat in order to inflict a "Crit" would work very well with the Grievous Injuries system I was going to steal from BCCS. Anyone know where I can take a look at that particular version?

 

[Land Outcast]

Grim-n-GrittyRevised

the last version available for free here in the forums