lethal combat

[AbeTheGnome]

i got tired of having to put my high-level characters up against greater gods to put any fear into them, so i decided to do something extreme: hit points equal to constitution. this system has truly made combat lethal. i've tried to compensate in several ways, since i don't really want to kill the whole party by second level, but, in general, my players know that combat is not something to be taken lightly, and probably should be avoided if possible: the game is not hack and slash. can you tell yet that i've played call of cthulu? anyway, these are some of the adjustments i've made.

armor bonus applies to DR. critical hits always bypass DR. this means that a rogue with a dagger will barely ever be able to damage a palie in full plate, but if he finds a chink in the armor, the full damage of the crit applies. also, successful sneak attacks are an automatic critical threat.

armor check penalties apply directly to DEX. why should a tank that has low DEX to begin with suffer virtually no penalties, as opposed to a rogue in full plate?

defense bonus equal to reflex save (of course, DEX bonus doesn't apply twice: just base save).

one major problem that i've run into is spells. lots of spells have required major tweaking. i decided to alter spells so that damage die never exceed spell level. any extra damage die that would result from caster level instead add +1 point per caster level. that way, a fireball cast by a 7th level caster would deal 3d6+7 points of damage. still enough to kill just about any pc, which is maybe more than i would like.

monsters are another issue. while i like the idea of a dragon with only 30 hit points, and about 12 points of damage reduction, i don't like the idea of a house cat having one third as many hit points as an ancient wyrm. i've thought about using a fractional multiplier based on size, where a tiny creature would have CON x 1/4 hit points... something like that.

anyhow, please give up your comments and suggestions. thanks.

 

[ViciousPenguin]

The system you're looking for (and that you have recreated, in part) is called Grim-n-Gritty, by Ken Hood. There is an updated version that is available for purchase and download from www.RPGNow.com, and if you Google for it you may be able to find an older version hosted online for gratis.

I'm currently using this system in my campaign and it adds that sence of realisim that you're looking for, but doesn't take all of the juice away from the PC's. It's well balanced and very playable, and it requires very little tweeking of spells and such.

The problem you mentioned with kittens having too many hit points as compared to dragons is addressed as well. There is a "soak" stat, much like DR, that every creature has. Big creatures get bonuses to soak and little creatures get penalties. Kittens probably have negative soak (i.e. negative DR) and you actually add to the damage you do to them because they are so small.

I encourage you to give it a shot. My players were very sceptical at first, but they all agree that this is a superior combat system.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

thanks for the tip, mr. penguin. it's hard to tell from the blotter, but this looks like exactly what i'm looking for. are you familiar with the ultimate game designer's companion from mongoose? it features the grim-n-gritty system, but i don't know in how much detail. if it's a fairly complete feature, i will download that, because it seems to have lots of other goodies in it, but the combat system is what i'm really looking for.

 

[Bayonet_Chris]

Grim n Gritty

I have a modified GnG system for my game too. Feel free to check it out (links below, unless I lost my sig somehow)

 

[Cavebear]

The concept has merit. I postulated a revised hit point system where a character's old hit points are calculated as before, but converted to new hit points (the ones used during the adventure) by taking the square root and multiplying by five*. While not as extreme as the system you are proposing, it addresses some of the same root problems.

Like you, I have modified the armour system as well. Armour now supplies some AC and some DR.

Like you, I decided to do something about fireballs and so on. I decided to remove conjurations, evocations, and divinations completely. Spellcasters no longer warp time and space or defy gravity. They merely warp minds, senses, and metabolisms.

No more negative hit points. Now characters lose CON when they are out of HP.

I admire your approach, Abe--it definitely should discourage gratuitous combat.
What else have you done with the rules?

Cheers,

Cavebear

* so a 4hp character now gets 10hp, a 25hp character gets 25 hp, but a 225 hp character will have only 75. Diminishing returns.

 

[Vrecknidj]

No more negative hit points. Now characters lose CON when they are out of HP.

I've been thinking of something like this. Haven't decided yet. Maybe one point of Con per hit-die-max (rounded down, minimum of 1).

So, a cleric with 3 hit points and a 15 Con who takes 20 points of damage takes, instead:

a) 3 points, dropping his HP to 0
b) 1 point of Con per 8 hit points; so, in this case 2 points of Con (3+8+8 = 19)
c) losing Con points does not reduce hit points below zero

From here on out, every 8 points of damage does one point of Con, and every hit does at least one point of Con (but anything over 8 points, that doesn't evenly divide is "wasted").

And, a wizard takes 1 point of Con for every 4 hit points of damage.

What to do about multiclass characters? Tough call. I mean, a Ftr10/Sor2 shouldn't get the same treatment as a Ftr6/Sor6, I don't think. One could do averages (d10 and d4 is d7, so 7 hit points per point of Con), one could reduce points based on a "weakest first" rule. So, a Ftr10/Sor2 would take one point of Con per 4 hit points for the first two ponits of Con, and then lose them at the sturdier rate of 1 Con per 10 hit points.

Dunno.

Dave

 

[magic_gathering2001]

personally I add CON to hp at each level (MAX 1/4 normal HD). This way PCs scale in HP but not much

 

[AbeTheGnome]

should i attempt to re-balance the classes in lieu of the lack of hit die? are fighters and barbarians getting gypped now? does this variant upset balance enough to worry about it? if so, what are some ways i could balance things out again?

also, i'm thinking about making hit points equal to 2 x CON instead. i'm just pulling too many punches in combat here.... thoughts?

thanks,
abe.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

ok... this "variant" is more trouble than it's worth. it would require a total re-working of the entire system. i would never be able to put my characters up against evokers, or even trolls, for that matter. however, i still want something that puts the fear back in the game. so, this is what i've come up with: critical hits deal CON damage. they also bypass DR (armor would still grant DR under this system).

sneak attacks, instead of granting extra damage die, would add to critical threat range. for instance, if a rogue would normally have a sneak attack that deals +6d6 of damage, instead his sneak attacks would have +6 chance to deal a critical hit... 13-20 with a dagger.

another advantage to this system is that it can recreate certain scenes from epic fantasy. for instance, remember the scene at the end of The Hobbit where a lowly archer and a single well-placed arrow took down Smaug the great wyrm? that could never happen with the current d20 system, but with this variant, maybe.

one more note on critical hits: i'll probably change them to work something like this... instead of a multiplier, crits would add extra die. so instead of a battleaxe that dealt (1d8+STR) x 3, it would instead deal 3d8 + STR... i still want PCs to have a chance to survive a crit, but not a great one. hell, maybe i'll use the vitality/wound method, where crits deal the same amount of damage as a normal attack, but it will come out of CON instead.

any thoughts, constructive criticism?

thanks, abe.

 

[Drawmack]

here's a nice little "system" I've come up with over the years to make combat something to be feared. This is a really hard system to understand and causes a lot of problems for people. It required many, many pages of typed house rules. ready for it - Give monsters class levels.

As long as the creature is not a dumb animal - which very few enemies are - you can give them class levels to beef them up.

You wanna make your players fear combat in your game, stick five goblins in the dungeon who are 20th level monks.