Lets design a Warlord for 5th edition

[FrogReaver]

Yes.
What part of that concerns you?

The part where it's going to be very easy to make a very unperpowered warlord (by comparison to what a strong warlord would look in your system) by taking too many non-at will options that don't increase power like having more and more at will options but only increase versatility.

So... your basiclly making a warlord with at will abilities that gets a few options for non-at will abilites?

Yes and by doing so I'm avoiding giving the player "trap" choices like taking too many short rest (versatility only) options when they should be taking at-will power increasing options.

Not sure I see much difference.
Except, using reactions reduces the number of things you need to track.

The problem with reactions is that they eliminate your opportunity to OA. If you just give more reactions and still have abilities that are only limited by costing a reaction you still eliminate your opportunity to OA.

 

[FrogReaver]

At will narrows down your options a lot if you want it remotely balanced. Some sort of aura type class like the 3.5 Marshall might be the best bet.

Considering mellored's invocations are going to be mostly at will options then I'd say the invocation idea is going to run into the same issues.

If at-will invocations can work then at will powers with a few short rest abilities can work too

 

[Zardnaar]

Considering mellored's invocations are going to be mostly at will options then I'd say the invocation idea is going to run into the same issues.

If at-will invocations can work then at will powers with a few short rest abilities can work too

My at will invocations are fairly minor or passive bonuses. One of them gives two skills insight and history for example.

There are at will abilities in the PHB but they are fairly minor the Champion comes to mind. Converting some of the 4E ones might work or look at things like the mastermind rogues ability. That is kind of a key feature though if you made 5 abilities like that its kinda OP but you could make some as invocations. The advantage granting thing could be a generic invocation although I would perhaps but it as an inspiring option, probably gate it to level 5.

Other at wills could be based off cantrips and have a rider. I would probably have them as a bonus action for the rider and have the effect keyed off the basic attack. You could tie bits of it off feats such as Sentinel.

"Keep in in place"
As a bonus action on your next attack if you hit you the opponent must attack you or soak an attack of opportunity"

The riders on cantrips could be another option. Bonus action though since you get to apply ability mod to damage unlike cantrips for most spellcasters (invokers, light clerics, warlocks being exceptions obviously).

 

[mellored]

The part where it's going to be very easy to make a very unperpowered warlord (by comparison to what a strong warlord would look in your system) by taking too many non-at will options that don't increase power like having more and more at will options but only increase versatility.

The ones that need to increase in power increase in power. And the short-rest abilities stack. So you can use all of them.

If anything, it's the guy who takes all the reaction options that will be behind. Since your limited on the number of reactions you have. But, that's no worse of a "trap" than a wizard who takes only concentration spells.

The problem with reactions is that they eliminate your opportunity to OA. If you just give more reactions and still have abilities that are only limited by costing a reaction you still eliminate your opportunity to OA.

Ehh... maybe. Though, another problem with reactions is they restart at the beginning of your turn. You could go though an entire round never getting a trigger.

So maybe a reaction-like pool that recharge at the end of your turn? Thus if you have any left over, you can use them to boost damage. Hmm... actually, that might be better. Since points can be more divisible than reactions.

But still, most of the features should be reaction-like bonuses.


Level 1:
Points: You gain a pool of points equal to your Int modifier + half your warlord level. This pool recharges at the end of your turn. Unless a feature says otherwise, spending points does not require an action. You spend points before you see the roll.

Default Useage of Points: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can spend points to deal 1 extra damage per point spent.

Invocations.

• Skill Boost: When a creature within 5' makes a skill check, you can spend points to give them a bonus to their roll equal to the points spent.
• Defense Boost: When a creature within 30' is hit by an attack, you can spend points to reduce the damage taken by the number of points spent. If this reduces the damage to 0, the attack is a miss.
• First Aid: As a bonus action, you can let someone spend a number of hit dice equal to the number of points you spend. Their dice roll is maximized.
• Inititive Boost: When a creature other than yourself rolls initiative, you can spend points to increase their roll by 1 for each point spent. (Note that you will not have these points on your first turn, since your pool reacharges at the end of your turn).
• Save Penalty (prerequisite level 4): When a creature makes a saving throw, you can give it a penalty equal to that save equal to half the number of point spent.

Level 11: Precision Command: You can decide to use points after you see the die roll, letting you spend only as much as you need.


*All of that needs better names.

 

[FrogReaver]

My at will invocations are fairly minor or passive bonuses. One of them gives two skills insight and history for example.

There are at will abilities in the PHB but they are fairly minor the Champion comes to mind. Converting some of the 4E ones might work or look at things like the mastermind rogues ability. That is kind of a key feature though if you made 5 abilities like that its kinda OP but you could make some as invocations. The advantage granting thing could be a generic invocation although I would perhaps but it as an inspiring option, probably gate it to level 5.

Other at wills could be based off cantrips and have a rider. I would probably have them as a bonus action for the rider and have the effect keyed off the basic attack. You could tie bits of it off feats such as Sentinel.

"Keep in in place"
As a bonus action on your next attack if you hit you the opponent must attack you or soak an attack of opportunity"

The riders on cantrips could be another option. Bonus action though since you get to apply ability mod to damage unlike cantrips for most spellcasters (invokers, light clerics, warlocks being exceptions obviously).

I see. Basically in yours the choice would come down to whether you want the few good at-will invocations you offer or not. That didn't work at too well with the warlock. Nearly everyone either takes the extra attack invocation or the eldritch blast damage invocation. It really didn't end up being much of a real choice IMO.

 

[FrogReaver]

The ones that need to increase in power increase in power. And the short-rest abilities stack. So you can use all of them.

This is not about scaling. I get they can increase in power. I get they

When you say the short rest abilities stack I'm not seeing it. Maybe you can elaborate but to me it just sounds like you get a bunch of short rest options with an independent fixed amount of times you can use that pool of abilities. Is there something else going on here? If that's all it is then adding short rest abilities as opposed to picking one of the stacking and scaling at-will options is almost always going to be a trap.

If anything, it's the guy who takes all the reaction options that will be behind. Since your limited on the number of reactions you have. But, that's no worse of a "trap" than a wizard who takes only concentration spells.

Maybe I've misunderstood your at will abilities as well. You are saying they don't actually stack with each other but instead that you can only use one a turn?

Ehh... maybe. Though, another problem with reactions is they restart at the beginning of your turn. You could go though an entire round never getting a trigger.

One way around the not getting something to trigger is is to give a lot of abilities with various triggers so that one is almost always bound to occur and it's just part of life when it doesn't (similar to rogues sneak attack sometimes not being able to occur)

So maybe a reaction-like pool that recharge at the end of your turn? Thus if you have any left over, you can use them to boost damage. Hmm... actually, that might be better. Since points can be more divisible than reactions.

But still, most of the features should be reaction-like bonuses.

That's another potential way to do it. End of turn to end of turn timeframe with a once a turn limit. That could work.

Level 1:
Points: You gain a pool of points equal to your Int modifier + half your warlord level. This pool recharges at the end of your turn. Unless a feature says otherwise, spending points does not require an action. You spend points before you see the roll.

Default Useage of Points: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can spend points to deal 1 extra damage per point spent.

I still don't get the fascination with trying this to int mod. We are making a warlord not a solely tactical warlord. My basic abilities (especially the more inspirational ones) shouldn't require INT to function best and this int mod on uses basically forces that.

Invocations.

• Skill Boost: When a creature within 5' makes a skill check, you can spend points to give them a bonus to their roll equal to the points spent.
• Defense Boost: When a creature within 30' is hit by an attack, you can spend points to reduce the damage taken by the number of points spent. If this reduces the damage to 0, the attack is a miss.
• First Aid: As a bonus action, you can let someone spend a number of hit dice equal to the number of points you spend. Their dice roll is maximized.
• Inititive Boost: When a creature other than yourself rolls initiative, you can spend points to increase their roll by 1 for each point spent. (Note that you will not have these points on your first turn, since your pool reacharges at the end of your turn).
• Save Penalty (prerequisite level 4): When a creature makes a saving throw, you can give it a penalty equal to that save equal to half the number of point spent.

Okay, so these are at will style abilities. This solves a lot of my concerns as these abilities scale but don't stack. Every point you spend ends up being an either/or option.

However, there are still a few things. My first major concern is that you are level gating some of these abilities when it's a single resource pool you get to spend on them which makes it feel like the higher level gated abilities should be stronger when they should actually be equal (or else why worry about the lower tier abilities).

Healing, even gated by hit dice should not be at will. At level 6 you would be able to instandly fully heal 2 party members from 0 hp in the same turn. It's not just a problem with your particular implementation of at-will healing. Healing simply must have a per rest limitation on it.

The skill boost one concerns me if it's not left to a combat only use (not many skills get used in combat so I don't see any particular issue with it at this time)

Defense Boost actually works fine and scaled about how we would expect a damage reduction ability to scale.

Initiative boost works if you give the warlord a set of points when initiative is rolled that can be used before his first turn. I'm not sure we want to do that but it's an option

Save Penalty - no just no.

Level 11: Precision Command: You can decide to use points after you see the die roll, letting you spend only as much as you need.


*All of that needs better names.

Precision Command is interesting

What are some of the encounter or long rest style save abilities?

 

[FrogReaver]

[MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION]

I do see one potential solution. If all the at will abilities share a pool of resources but don't stack and just scale in power (through your points for example) and if the short rest abilities behave similarly then my biggest concern is solved again.

If this is done then both at-will and short rest abiltiies are just increasing versatility which is a form of power but not the raw-power I was concerned with.

 

[FrogReaver]

My at will invocations are fairly minor or passive bonuses. One of them gives two skills insight and history for example.

There are at will abilities in the PHB but they are fairly minor the Champion comes to mind. Converting some of the 4E ones might work or look at things like the mastermind rogues ability. That is kind of a key feature though if you made 5 abilities like that its kinda OP but you could make some as invocations. The advantage granting thing could be a generic invocation although I would perhaps but it as an inspiring option, probably gate it to level 5.

Now you are talking about potentially making stronger invocations level gated (like the warlock). That's probably fine for at will abilities but it doesn't work well for per rest abilities because it eliminates the ability to have a flexible pool of equally powered options which is a very important consideration as it's one of the warlock's invocation lists most glaring weaknesses. It makes almost the only things worth picking from the list be at will abilities.

Other at wills could be based off cantrips and have a rider. I would probably have them as a bonus action for the rider and have the effect keyed off the basic attack. You could tie bits of it off feats such as Sentinel.

"Keep in in place"
As a bonus action on your next attack if you hit you the opponent must attack you or soak an attack of opportunity"

I like this ability. Good job!

The riders on cantrips could be another option. Bonus action though since you get to apply ability mod to damage unlike cantrips for most spellcasters (invokers, light clerics, warlocks being exceptions obviously).

Unless you are worried about feat bonus actions or multiclassing bonus actions wouldn't it be better to limit such abilities some other way than through a bonus action, that way the warlord could 2 weapon fight if he wanted?

 

[Zardnaar]

Now you are talking about potentially making stronger invocations level gated (like the warlock). That's probably fine for at will abilities but it doesn't work well for per rest abilities because it eliminates the ability to have a flexible pool of equally powered options which is a very important consideration as it's one of the warlock's invocation lists most glaring weaknesses. It makes almost the only things worth picking from the list be at will abilities.



I like this ability. Good job!



Unless you are worried about feat bonus actions or multiclassing bonus actions wouldn't it be better to limit such abilities some other way than through a bonus action, that way the warlord could 2 weapon fight if he wanted?

Sure a warlord could TWF but they lack the fighitng style although the Bravura one could get it but like the Paladin probably should not get TWF as an option.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure a warlord could TWF but they lack the fighitng style although the Bravura one could get it but like the Paladin probably should not get TWF as an option.

I can't be Maximus