Let's Forget the Forgotten Realms

[Mark Oliva]

Gee golly whillikers! Excellent post! I think the FR in their early generation were the greatest campaign setting that I've ever seen, a bit ahead of Greyhawk. I was my setting for more than a decade. However, it kept getting run through the TSR and then WotC and then WotC/Hasbro meat grinder. In the end, all that was left was low grade hamburger. I don't know whether you had to be intoxicated or not to kick this hornet's nest. But it was a great kick. Soccer players worldwide will be jealous, to say nothing of the Green Bay Packers! In the FR, one's supposed to say, "Well met!" Here it might be more appropriate to say, "Well said," or maybe even "Well kicked." Regardless, a very good piece.

 

[Jiggawatts]

Morrus...you really never played the Baldurs Gate PC games...I feel very sorry for you sir, that series is one of the greatest CRPG's in the existence of ever.

GO FOR THE EYES BOO!

 

[zoggynog]

For a follow up thread that should have already exploded into hate from the FR faithful...I must add to those that agree.

I have been playing purely homebrew most of my life but something happened when I started up 4e. I found the "Point of Light" setting interesting because it started to merge several previous settings into one. Maybe not in great detail...but the thought was there.

I started to really get into the ideas of Ravenloft and Planescape and its ties to 4e core.

I hear they bastardized Planescape pretty bad (to fit the new lax alignment structure?) but the incorporation of Sigil into core 4e and the Domains of Dread in the Shadowfell hit a right note for me.

As far as I'm concerned, I DO think Greyhawk would make a great retro starting point.

I purpose the following:

5e core setting takes place as an alternate reality of what happens after 3e lore.

No spell plague occurs in FR.

No destruction of "The Wheel" from "Die Vecna Die" (that's how they explain it right?) All Planes go back to how they were in 3e

Planescape guilds were not kicked out by Lady of Pain, Planescape stays very true to what it was when it came out.

Greyhawk is core setting, but perhaps the Feywild/Shadowfell is worked into Greyhawk?. Can this be done without screwing Greyhawk lore? If not, perhaps incorporate the feel of those to places into "newly discovered" parts of the Greyhawk world? I'm spitballing here. Feel free to squish this idea Greyhawkers...

Ravenloft's Barovia once existed in Greyhawk. Account for its disappearance in Greyhawk lore...and perhaps expand on what was left behind.

Also, the Hollow World setting takes place deep beneath Greyhawk.

Sigil/Planescape is supported early on, it acts as a "bridge to anywhere" that merges Dark Sun, Eberron, FR, Dragonlance, The domains of dread (Ravenloft), and any new WoTC/Homebrew setting.

Spelljammer ships are used to travel the Astral Plane and hop planets without teleporting through Sigil.

These settings are all on different worlds, but part of one reality.

In another reality exists the various settings/story lines played out in 4e.

Sigil can optionally (DM's call) even merge these two realities. A character knows which reality they come from depending on if they can see the Spire of Outlands.

Thoughts

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

Finally, something Morrus posted on this site that I agree with 100%.

Is this a trick? Am I being tricked?

I am dubious... and afraid.

 

[Electryc]

Don't post much but I felt compelled to on your subject matter. I love Greyhawk, the map is awesome, the Geopolitical drama between the kingdoms with definite borders make a better case for US VS THEM. The villains, who can trump Iuz, The Scarlet Brotherhood, or Iggwilv? Playing Greyhawk made me feel like I'm the hero, not just a small piece in a huge puzzle like Forgotten Realms. The only thing I dislike about Greyhawk is the deities.

P.S. (please dont strike me down ol mighty Tharzidun!)

 

[Asmor]

I feel the same way, and then some.

I dislike Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and even Dragonlance, because my initial impression of all three of them is that they're just generic swords and sorcery fantasy*.

You want to know my favorite settings? Eberron, Planescape, and Spelljammer, in that order. I also don't mind Dark Sun, although I kind of dislike the whole dystopian/post-apocalyptic genre, so that keeps it off my list of favorites.

I'd like D&D to actually go for a more distinctive identity. It's got some things there already. Despite being in the game for so long, psionics and monks have somehow maintained a feeling of being more D&D-distinct and less generic S&S. Warforged and Dragonborn are also great, iconic D&Disms.

*Granted, D&D may well have defined what it means to be this style of generic S&S, so I suppose in that sense they're not generic so much as prototypical. Also, I don't really know much about Dragonlance and recognize that it might not be as generic as the other two, but this is simply about my impressions of the three.

 

[Blackwind]

I agree with Morrus, FWIW, but I believe the die has already been cast. After all, they've already hired some Chinese video game art studio for FR! I am really curious to see what that will look like... :/

I ran one campaign in the Realms, like others here, when the 3.0 Realms book came out. It was a great book! Probably the best-done setting book that TSR or WotC had ever made. And we had fun in that campaign, although it had absolutely nothing to do with the setting.

Dragonlance was my first D&D setting. When my friend A. introduced me to D&D back in 4th grade (age 9 or 10) he also introduced me to the original DL novels. After that, I went on to read pretty much every DL novel in print (1994, there were a lot by then) over the next year or so. But I could never play in DL. The official story always made it too hard for me to imagine playing in that setting. I have a similar resistance to playing a Dune game or a Middle Earth game or any other setting where there's already a strong storyline established.

Plus I like world-building, so I've always run homebrew for the most part. But I think Morrus is onto something when he suggests that Greyhawk would be the best default setting for 5E.

First of all, it's full of weird, old-school awesome! The place-names and character names are distinctively Gygaxian. The "name" wizards and their spells. The iconic adventure locations. The deities and their quirky mythologies. The very idiosyncratic cosmology. It all sets D&D apart from other fantasy games.

In a sense, no other setting is as D&D as Greyhawk. And by supporting Greyhawk, WotC would be sending a message to long-time fans saying "yes, we really are getting back to the roots of what this game is about."

EDIT: I should add that I actually know very little about Greyhawk. I'm not some grognard, I'm 27.

I also know that part of the reason a lot of fans are/were so dedicated to Paizo is because of their support of Greyhawk while they had Dragon and Dungeon.

Finally, Greyhawk ties in really well with both Planescape and Spelljammer! In a way that FR doesn't, because FR has a different cosmology sort of.

As for Eberron: I think it's a really well done setting, but it's too far from the standard, pseudo-medieval milieu of D&D to be the flagship setting.

 

[Incenjucar]

None of the generic fantasy settings really mean anything to me. They all contain some elements I like, and some elements I dislike, and most of those disliked elements seem to revolve around their uber wizards and the gods who are barely their peers - Drizzt being the exception but off in his own way. I'd like to see a generic fantasy setting that has a more varied distribution of prominent figures, where mighty wizards live in fear of equally mighty paladins, and where rogues are as likely to change the world as clerics are.

 

[Cam Banks]

I know a fair bit about Dragonlance. How to write adventure paths for it, how to design around existing editions for it, how to write a short story and a novel for it. I've thought and thought and thought about it for many years, and at one point it was pretty much my day job; I knew the continuity of Dragonlance and all of its myriad threads well enough to trim bits off when we updated it, and tie up others when I was running my own campaign set in Krynn.

While I agree wholeheartedly that it grew well beyond its own borders somewhere in the middle, you can't deny that its fanbase has always wanted more than the Chronicles/Legends. Always. Yes, they go back to that period, those six novels (now nine, if you include the Lost Chronicles in the mix), that War of the Lance. But they wanted more, always more. And that's why TSR gave them more, and why we (as Sovereign Press) did the same.

There's a level of fandom that sees settings like the Realms and Krynn and Mystara as pretty much the same thing hashed over a hundred times, the same droll sword and sorcery. This is the same level that sums up Dragonlance as "annoying kender and Raistlin and are they having another Cataclysm again?" and the Realms as "Drizzt and Elminster and blah blah."

That level of fandom isn't the target for these settings. But I fear they're also the majority, the lowest common denominator. Big companies fear appealing to those fans who are die-hard Realms or Krynn or Mystara geeks, because where's the money in that? Really, they'd prefer to either launch something new and control all the IP without legacy issues, paying homage to older creators, or continuity-freak fans like myself. Or else they'd prefer to sprinkle bits and pieces of those settings in core supplements as IP shrapnel to flavor whatever thematic salad is on the plate.

I will say this: I would write more Dragonlance books, design more Dragonlance game material, play more Dragonlance games, any time. Working with that material was probably when I was the most confident as a designer. I honestly have no idea what WotC has in store for Krynn, and I doubt anyone who once worked on or wrote for it does, either. But if you're willing to look beyond the surface level of D&D fandom, I think you'll find an intense following for it, and that's true for all of D&D's IP.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Dragonhelm]

Morrus,

As the guy who runs the Dragonlance Nexus, I found your comments very intriguing. I wanted to add my thoughts from the POV of a DL fan.

In Dragonlance fandom, we've talked quite a bit about the future of our beloved setting. Should we continue on with the story? Should it have a reboot? If so, how should it be done? Perhaps like they did with Star Trek, so as to get back to the heart of the setting without saying the past didn't exist.

Dragonlance as an adventure path? It seems like a natural fit. After all, the original Chronicles series of adventures was one of the first adventure paths (before the phrase was even coined), and was perhaps the first one that span over a large series of modules. It has been reprinted three different times, so you know it has appeal. They weren't perfect and had some issues with railroading at the start, but they are classics. And if we are getting back to basics, Dragonlance is a natural.

My fear in all of this is that Dragonlance may be seen as a one-trick pony with the War of the Lance. I know that the setting has room for all sorts of stories. However, I think a number of people will always hold the War of the Lance to be the main story of Dragonlance and have no need to go beyond. If this is the only way we will see Dragonlance in print again, then I would be fine with the reprint, though I hope to see more.

Greyhawk may hold potential, but WotC needs to fully support it as a setting. There needs to be a modernized core rulebook for it, and updates on the setting. My fear is that the split Greyhawk fandom won't do well with a re-imagined Greyhawk. However, I for one would love to see Greyhawk once again.

I understand the reasoning behind making the Realms so prominent in 5e. It's the largest, most well-known of all the generic settings. It holds a lot of popularity, so it's only natural to use it.

Unfortunately, the Realms suffers from some of the same problems that have affected Dragonlance. Most notable is the Spellplague. It is to the Realms what the Fifth Age was to Dragonlance - a time jump with a changed landscape and magic, a new game system, and a split fan base to go with it. I even wrote to Rich Baker about my concerns, but he assured me that having the D&D logo on it (which the Fifth Age didn't) would be what would make the Realms succeed. About that...

Dragonlance at one point was the Fifth Age vs. the Fourth Age. Now we see that with the Realms. The answer in Dragonlance's case was to have the War of Souls, and to create the 3.5 rules for Dragonlance under Sovereign Press (now Margaret Weis Productions). Yes, some schisms remain, but a lot of healing has happened. DL moved on. The Realms needs to as well.

While I'm not sure I wholly agree with your points, I think you have given fans a lot to think about.

Just curious, what's your take on the Nentir Vale and Mystara in all of this?

EDIT: Cam beat me to the punch!