Lets talk about ECL .....

[DeBhaal]

Ok, my question is: Do characters with ECL(such as +1, +2 to level) gain level dependent features?

Ex;
ECL +5 nets you a character of 6th level; but following logic that I was informed about, he would only have the feat he gets for 1st level, if he gets one, Skill points of a 1st level character, and no increase to an ability score. And an XP penalty

Multi any two classes to combine to make Character 6level, the Multi comes out with 2 feats(just from level dependent), 6HD from classes, Class abilities, and so on. And no XP penalty as long as the levels were chosen correctly.

So, is that right? Or is is completely wrong? If its wrong whats the right way, Factor in ECL for determining Level dependent features? And if it is how is it balanced? Because Im not seeing anything that makes it such.

 

[Crothian]

Ok, my question is: Do characters with ECL(such as +1, +2 to level) gain level dependent features?

Ex;
ECL +5 nets you a character of 6th level; but following logic that I was informed about, he would only have the feat he gets for 1st level, if he gets one, Skill points of a 1st level character, and no increase to an ability score. And an XP penalty

That is the correct way of doing it. A ecl+5 creature has everyithng a first level character has plus all their nifty racial bonuses. IMO, ecls are not worth it.

 

[DeBhaal]

Correct way of doing it, on I can accept that, but how can they call it balanced, your screwed from the get-go, the only thing you get out of it is an XP penalty, the racial abilitys arent even worth it, Hell, with templates the way they are, I wouldnt even use them on a NPC, because it wouldnt matter what they got for the race, they would be ****ed over by even a lower level party.

And people complain about how Multi-ing a character nerfs them ........

 

[Crothian]

And people complain about how Multi-ing a character nerfs them ........

It really dpends on how one is using them. A half celestrial is fine for it's ecl cost, but many of the races are not. And multi classing doesn't nerf people, it might hinder a spellcaster some, but when played correctly multi classed character are powerful.

 

[DeBhaal]

Still havent seen how it is balanced.

 

[Crothian]

Still havent seen how it is balanced.

How what is balanced? Some are some are not, balancing is done with specifics not with broad generalizations.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

In my experience, the ECL's work out pretty well for a game balance. Because monsters weren't designed with being played as characters, some weird situations arise where they're more powerful or less powerful than equivalent characters... IMO that's what makes playing them interesting

I'm currently playing a Mind Flayer (which we estimated as an ECL +14... Might be a little off, but we're not playing this game to be a totally serious, high-roleplaying adventure, it's the one we're having fun with)... He has no character levels, which means he lacks the versatility (and, in certain cases, the focus) of a character with 14 class levels, but I haven't lagged behind or stepped ahead of any of the other members of the party. Granted, the fact that I can send creatures to other planes when they piss me off makes things interesting. And, my ability scores are just nuts... It makes up for the whole slew of feats and such that I'm missing completely, IMO.

Also note that (as far as I know) ECL is used for determining appropriate character level in a starting party as well as experience awards, but NOT the experience required to gain a level... That's still dependent on hit dice (I could be wrong). So even though you're effectively a fifteenth level character, you'll get to effective-sixteenth level a little (or a lot) faster than a character with 15 class levels... So, you should begin to accrue your abilities in short enough order.

Of course, if you're min-maxing you might feel a little jilted ("you mean I can't have a +8 Strength AND eight bonus feats? BROKEN!") but in practice, the ECL system seems to work better in creating a fun, balanced game than even the DMG suggests it should.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I'm currently playing a Mind Flayer (which we estimated as an ECL +14... Might be a little off, but we're not playing this game to be a totally serious, high-roleplaying adventure, it's the one we're having fun with)... He has no character levels, which means he lacks the versatility (and, in certain cases, the focus) of a character with 14 class levels, but I haven't lagged behind or stepped ahead of any of the other members of the party. Granted, the fact that I can send creatures to other planes when they piss me off makes things interesting. And, my ability scores are just nuts... It makes up for the whole slew of feats and such that I'm missing completely, IMO.

For your 14 levels, you get:

8d8 HD
+3 Natural Armor
+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, and +6 Cha
5 feats: Alertness, Combat Casting, Dodge, Improved Init, and Weapon Finesse
SR 25
Mind blast and a bunch of psionic abilities at will
The whole brain-eating thing

Now, compare that to 14 levels of a class, and I think you actually come out a little ahead. Your hit points will suffer, but you get just as many feats, increases to every stat, spell resisance, psionics, and brain eating. I'd say that's about balanced.

Also note that (as far as I know) ECL is used for determining appropriate character level in a starting party as well as experience awards, but NOT the experience required to gain a level... That's still dependent on hit dice (I could be wrong). So even though you're effectively a fifteenth level character, you'll get to effective-sixteenth level a little (or a lot) faster than a character with 15 class levels... So, you should begin to accrue your abilities in short enough order.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that part. I'm almost certain that the experience required to gain a level is based off of your ECL...

Yes, I just checked, it is based off your ECL, at least according to the FRCS. If some later book changed this, then I'm not aware of it

Of course, if you're min-maxing you might feel a little jilted ("you mean I can't have a +8 Strength AND eight bonus feats? BROKEN!") but in practice, the ECL system seems to work better in creating a fun, balanced game than even the DMG suggests it should.

I could probably min-max just fine with an ECL character, because nothing says munchkin like a minotaur paladin/assassin/sorceror/druid.

 

[Crothian]

One of the big things with ecl creatures is HP. However, I've found that placing the high stat, or one of them, into constitution (especially if you get a con bonus) really helps.