• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D General Level 1-20 and the gulf between aspirations and reality

I don't have any data to back this up (or that I'm willing to look up at the moment), but from what I gather most campaigns last less than a year and break up by 10th level. Players leave the group, they get tired of the campaign and their PCs, a TPK wipes out the party, combats bog down and grow tiresome at high levels, the DM gets excited about running something else - there are myriad reasons why it's difficult for groups to stay together and maintain enthusiasm for a campaign long enough to reach 12th level, let alone 20th level.

These assumptions are based on my own experiences and what I've read on RPG forums for the last 15 years. But you can just look at the forum discussion around Pathfinder Adventure Paths, where the vast majority of discussion is around the first couple chapters and tails of dramatically with the later chapters. It stands to reason that reflects a drop-off in actual play as the AP progresses.

So why do publishers still design systems and publish campaigns with a default assumption of level 1-20? Why make the default something that only a fraction of groups will experience?

Are there commercial reasons to cater to the fraction of groups that make it past 12th level? Maybe. Though you'd think that publishing epic campaigns that only a fraction of groups finish would leave a lot of buyers disappointed.

Unless the number of groups who reach level 20 doesn't matter to buyers. Unless D&D is largely an aspirational endeavour, where the real-world likelihood of completing a campaign doesn't really affect buying.

I've come around to the belief that the great majority of the time, energy, and resources put into RPGs is never fulfilled in actual play, and never goes further than enticing prospects living in the imaginations of the creators and the buyers. And that this aspirational approach to the hobby is baked into both the industry and the culture around the game. Books are are designed to be read (often by buyers who don't actively game) rather than used at the table. Character progressions mapped out but never achieved. Campaigns promise epic arcs that are never fulfilled.

A D&D (and RPG hobby in general) that was built strictly around servicing the typical needs of actual play would look very, very different from what we have.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Enrico Poli1

Adventurer
As I am a guy who prefers play in the Lvl 9-13 range, and who actually enjoyed and finished some very high-level campaigns (Age of Worms, Savage Tide) I have to say:
  • the perspective of High Level play is good because it motivates the low-level players to strive for new and strongest powers;
  • High Level play can be a very satisfactory experience;
  • Some problems of high-level play in old editions are removed in 5e (impossibly complex and long combats; magic items proliferation; caster supremacy), this means this type of play is now more approachable;
  • If WotC menaged to produce an excellent high-level adventure, maybe this offer could stimulate the demand for high-level play. Unfortunately, Dungeon of the Mad Mage, the only high level module now in print, isn't a good enough example.
 

Tyler Do'Urden

Soap Maker
Seems that most campaigns put out by WotC and Paizo are really designed to go to 10th to 15th level - most Pathfinder adventure paths wrap up before 15th level, and with the exception of the previously mentioned Dungeon of the Mad Mage no WotC paths are meant to go to 20.

Despite that, I agree with you. Life has a tendency to get in the way of our grand aspirations. I can't tell you how many "campaigns" I've been in that barely lasted 1-3 sessions... which is part of why I quit playing and now exclusively DM. If I start a campaign these days, you better believe I'm in it for the duration. The duration might not be to 20, but I'm going to try to resolve the arc.
 

pogre

Legend
We just finished up a 1st through 20th level campaign. Enjoyed the experience quite a bit, but I totally agree it is an outlier.

One other contributing factor to the lack of high level campaign, and of secondary importance to the ones you mentioned, is the cycle of - nobody plays high level adventures - so nobody makes high level adventures - so nobody plays high level adventures...
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
One other contributing factor to the lack of high level campaign, and of secondary importance to the ones you mentioned, is the cycle of - nobody plays high level adventures - so nobody makes high level adventures - so nobody plays high level adventures...

If you limit it to published adventures, 100% true.

However, by the time we get to such lofty levels, the players have such individualized goals for their near epic characters that we have to develop adventures ourselves anyway.

(I mean literally, nobody has published an adventure that would help my group go back in time to stop the evil necromancer from casting the Ritual Genocide, causing halflings to have never existed in my world.)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
So why do publishers still design systems and publish campaigns with a default assumption of level 1-20? Why make the default something that only a fraction of groups will experience?
First off, I don't think it's /that/ small a fraction, once you consider all the games & styles out there. The incarnations of D&D that were the most widely played by brand-new players just popping in and checking it out - 1e (&c) of the TSR fad years, and, now, 5e - are certainly going to skew to lower levels, the average brought down by the robust influx of new players whom it fails to catch on a permanent basis. And, virtually every version of D&D has had mechanical issues at higher levels, as well, so even players who are seriously bitten by the bug may re-boot their campaigns and old-school 'name' level (around 10) or cap it mechanically as in the 3.5 'E6' variant.

Are there commercial reasons to cater to the fraction of groups that make it past 12th level? Maybe. Though you'd think that publishing epic campaigns that only a fraction of groups finish would leave a lot of buyers disappointed.
Maybe they'll tend to be disappointed in themselves when the game failed to hold their interest (I just got distracted with RL) or remain playable at high levels (I just wasn't a good enough GM), while if the game didn't present those higher levels, at all, they'd be blaming the game?

I've come around to the belief that the great majority of the time, energy, and resources put into RPGs is never fulfilled in actual play, and never goes further than enticing prospects living in the imaginations of the creators and the buyers. And that this aspirational approach to the hobby is baked into both the industry and the culture around the game. Books are are designed to be read (often by buyers who don't actively game) rather than used at the table. Character progressions mapped out but never achieved. Campaigns promise epic arcs that are never fulfilled.
I can't say that decades of my own experience and hearsay don't seriously back that up. I've known many gamers who accumulated large libraries for games they rarely or never played, modules they never ran even though they did play the game in question, or longer adventures they played but never completed.

OTOH, I have known some campaigns to go quite long. I heavily-modified AD&D and ran a campaign with a reasonably stable group for 10 years. I played in 3e campaigns that straddled 3.0 & 3.5, and, limited to core+1, and with great player restraint, didn't experience serious problems until 13th level. I've played 4e through Epic, and am currently running a 4e campaign that has, running weekly ~2hr sessions since 2012, reached 27th, even with, weirdly, a couple of the players still really being 'casuals' by any reasonable definition. I've played in and run Storyteller and Hero Systems campaigns that went on for years, characters with hundreds of xp (to the scale of those exp systems, roughly the equivalent of 16th-24th level).

A D&D (and RPG hobby in general) that was built strictly around servicing the typical needs of actual play would look very, very different from what we have.
It'd look a bit like an, MMO... :ducks:

...seriously, though, it'd need to be a reasonably balanced, extensible, option-rich system kept constantly up-to-date with errata to maintain playability - amidst complaints about 'nerfs,' & 'feelz' and so forth.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
The answer is that they don't.

5e is designed for the majority of the game to be between levels 5-10. Those levels take the most amount of experience.

Levels 1 and 2 require little experience and so do levels 17-20.

I imagine that they included 20 levels because of sacred cows. Their actual design reflects that most people don't play to higher levels. I doubt they put much effort into designing the high level abilities either.

Personally when I am reviewing something in UA I only care about abilities up to 10th level.

My ideal campaign goes to 11th or 12th level. 1 more adventure after hitting tier 3 to show what the characters can really do now.
 

back in 1E days, the highest level adventurers I saw/ran topped out about 14th level... and that one was mainly because we took on the GDQ series when we all hit 10th level or so, and that was one fantastic series that really prompted you to stick with it. But otherwise... yes, campaigns did tend to peter out around 10th level or so. Which is kinda odd for players of mages, clerics, and monks, because the higher levels of those is where they really get interesting...
 

Nebulous

Legend
My ideal campaign is a slow progress from 1st to 10th. At the outer edge I'll go to 12th, but by then I'm getting tired of running it and all the powers that players have accumulated and the increasing difficulty of balancing encounters. Before that, in lower levels, I can whip something together in my head and it works. Later on this because monumentally more difficult.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
The GLOG has PCs gaining powers from level 1-4. At level 5 you get to retire if you want. If you continue your power increases slows remarkably (a few hp per levels basically).

I think that a game should be able to sustain the levels 10-12 ish, but I see levels above 15 to be some kind of hypothetical place. In almost 30 years of gaming I have never seen them.
 

Remove ads

Top