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Life and Death Consequences (Forked: On the Value of Uncertainty)

PC Death

  • Not without player approval.

    Votes: 3 5.9%
  • Determined strictly by the dice.

    Votes: 34 66.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 14 27.5%

Arkhandus

First Post
(Disclaimer: I ramble. Scroll to the last paragraph if you don't care about anecdotes.) :heh:

I mostly just let the dice fall where they may, but I do fudge on rare occasions. Like once or twice a year maybe. I can only really remember two or three anyway because they happen so infrequently and so far apart.

I fudged a crit confirmation into a normal hit once against a PC barbarian, for instance, because it would have killed him outright at that point. All of the PCs were near death and flanked in melee by rogues and warriors, and if the barbarian fell, it was a definite TPK in what was just a minor encounter on the road, with a group of bandits half the PCs' level and just greater in number. Everyone would have been ticked off if they died so ingloriously and such at that random, early point in the campaign (5th or 6th level).

This week was one of those times, where I ignored a few random encounter rolls....the PCs had just slain a greater vrock and a lesser vrock in the Abyss, completing a quest they had been on for some time, and had to return home through the Plane of Shadow; no cleric, and the wizard had chosen conjuration as a banned school waaaaay back when the campaign started. So, they Shadow Walked home right afterward; and I rolled three encounters in Shadow, first some shadow mastiffs that were tough only because they were essentially invisible regardless of PCs' See Invisibility spells (shadow blend is wierd but awesome).

Then 5 shadows, which I had fudged down from 11 (ignoring the last two dice rolls for determining their numbers). These nearly killed the archer and monk, leaving both with single-digit Strength, and if I had used 11, half or most of the party would've been slain and turned into shadows. Then the PCs would've faced 8 wraiths an hour later, but I fudged that encounter roll so they wouldn't face anything, since it would have been a definite TPK. As it is, the vrocks had killed an animal companion, nearly killed two or three PCs, and moderately wounded the rest. And forced the casters to waste most of their spells, leaving only a few low-level spells remaining.

If the party died fighting the vrocks, it would have been climactic amidst that exciting encounter at the end of their current quest, and I don't think anyone would be really sour about it. It was fun and suspenseful. But dying on the trip home to a few measly CR 3 shadows or slightly tougher wraiths, when the PCs had just gained enough XP for 14th level, would have been a disaster. Not as memorable as even just a random dinosaur mauling.


I tend to kill the PCs' pets and allies more often than the PCs themselves, somehow. But there was that random dinosaur mauling, where a PC sorcerer ticked off a tyrannosaur by bombarding it and its mate with a Fireball, and it promptly bit him in half. He could've fled instead of face the oncoming dinosaurs, but noooo. Muahah. As if they didn't make tons of noise crashing through the forest on their approach. The ground shook. The PCs decided to move in though. They narrowly survived thanks only to their frantic teamwork, as I nearly killed two or three other PCs with the angry dinos.

And I've killed a few other PCs over time, I just don't run an adversarial game; I'm there to challenge the PCs, not make them regret even bothering to show up every week for what's supposed to be a fun game. If their PC dies, they either did something stupid in-game and deserved it, or they died dramatically, or they just had rotten luck, and in the latter case there are rare occasions where I've fudged in their favor. There are also occasions where I've fudged in an opponent's favor just to make things a tad more challenging in an otherwise-anticlimactic encounter, but not as often.

PCs die, but I don't purposely try to make them drop like flies. I just don't make most encounters definite wins or losses; they usually depend as much on chance or PC tactics. And not all encounters are planned out; when PCs pick a fight with powerful NPCs or monsters somewhere, I don't pull any punches. Don't insult the ancient dragon when you don't know you're strong enough to survive if he takes offense, y'know? I only fudge for a PC if it would result in a very unheroic death or an equally pathetic TPK. But I won't save their PCs if they risk death again in that same fight or adventure.
 

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Fallen Seraph

First Post
Ehh, half and half in a way... The dice determine if a death is gonna happen, but the players understand when their getting themselves into a deadly situation.

Most of my games have only a little bit of combat, so each combat session is a very key and cinematic/meaningful moment so they know death is a possibility.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Characters usually have a chance or window of opportunity - sometimes several - to run away...unless, as has happened on occasion, they've intentionally gone in over their heads

After that, it's kill 'em all and let the gods sort 'em out. And in 24 years of DMing, I've killed a lot of characters...but never once had a TPK despite some pretty good attempts both by me and by some less-than-wise parties. Somehow someone always manages to get away, to find more recruits and keep the party going.

Any encounter, no matter how trivial, can turn deadly once weapons get drawn and random chance takes over. Which reflects reality, after all.

Lanefan
 

hanasays

First Post
As a DM, I don't fudge the rolls on dice.

I agree with the poster above me, though - I won't back them into a corner unless they've done something blatantly stupid. They get a chance to run away. If they don't take it, though, they have to roll with the dice.

The uncertainty is what makes the game interesting. A player may be attached to a character, but will do ridiculous things if they are convinced that I won't let them die. It also means there's no suspense to the story - it's far more interesting if there may be death at every turn (especially in the higher levels). It also leads to more interesting character histories - if two party-member characters are very close, and one of them dies at the hand of a villain, the surviving character can turn it into a motivation (revenge). The more unpredictable the story it is, the more interesting it is - and a few untimely deaths will teach players the value of prudence.
 

steenan

Adventurer
I like my players to be defeated sometimes. It makes the world feel more real, and challanges more challanging. If everything they encounter is solved and defeated, it is just not fun.
On the other hand, I hate killing characters. I appreciate well-prepared character backgrounds, I know the players like their heroes, and in many cases hooking the new character up feels artificial.
That's why I prefer game systems that allow defeat without killing, for example, by having broad marigin between being knocked out and dying. If it is narrow or non-existant (as in D&D, CP2020 or WoD), I fudge dice quite often when they they would cause character's death.
Both my players and I may accept TPK in the last boss fight. But if they have their asses kicked by a group of hobgoblins, it should definitely end in capture, not slaughter.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
Both my players and I may accept TPK in the last boss fight. But if they have their asses kicked by a group of hobgoblins, it should definitely end in capture, not slaughter.

I don't know. If a group of "heroes" gets slaughtered by a hobgoblin patrol, that's something that adds to the campaign setting (assuming the world is peristent from one campaign to the next).
 

Fenes

First Post
A player may be attached to a character, but will do ridiculous things if they are convinced that I won't let them die.

I don't play with such people anymore.

It also means there's no suspense to the story - it's far more interesting if there may be death at every turn (especially in the higher levels). It also leads to more interesting character histories - if two party-member characters are very close, and one of them dies at the hand of a villain, the surviving character can turn it into a motivation (revenge). The more unpredictable the story it is, the more interesting it is - and a few untimely deaths will teach players the value of prudence.

My problem was not that I needed to be taught prudence - I noticed that if I had to fear PC death the game was much less fun, or no fun at all, since I felt driven to minmaxing and playing as safe as possible. And the game suffered for it.

Another question is:

For those who kill PCs, what about raise dead and similar spells?

And for those who allow those spells: Wouldn't it be more precise to talk about "risk of losing money and some exp" then "risk of losing a character"?
 

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
Another question is:

For those who kill PCs, what about raise dead and similar spells?

And for those who allow those spells: Wouldn't it be more precise to talk about "risk of losing money and some exp" then "risk of losing a character"?

Good questions.


Ahnehnois said:
How about "only with DM approval"?


I kinda like the semantics of that approach.
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
For those who kill PCs, what about raise dead and similar spells?
Raise Dead gone. Resurrection and True Resurrection as 'rituals', and accordingly more involved, difficult and - IMO - meaningful.

I don't like the 'speed bump' approach to character death in RPGs, unless (I suppose) that is an intended feature of a particular setting or genre. . . that I also happen to want to run, or play in for that matter. For fantasy RPGs, that hasn't happened yet, for me.

On the other hand, I'm a fan of such things as Fate Points, Hero Points, Conviction, whatever the label. So yes, all rolls are as they stand, but there are generally going to be game mechanics in place to mitigate *some* of the worst of the effects there - provided they're employed wisely, and that luck isn't just totally out to get the player - when I run things, that is. Some GMs are not so. . . hm, kind? Well, whatever the word. That.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
That's why I prefer game systems that allow defeat without killing, for example, by having broad marigin between being knocked out and dying.
You should be pretty happy about 4E then since you can decide after dropping someone that all of the damage was non-lethal.
 

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