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Life without Hit Points

Iota

First Post
Could anyone suggest a game system that doesn't use Hit Points (or Health or any stat with the same function) in it's combat system?

All suggestions are welcome. Games with solid tactical (rather than strictly narrative) elements preferred. Comments about what makes the system better/worse than a Hit Point-based system would be most appreciated!
 

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Mutants & Masterminds has a damage save system. You don't have hit points; when you get hit, you make a damage save (based on Constitution) and if you fail, you can take penalties up to and including being stunned. As far as I can tell, taking immunity to stun mitigates many of these penalties, but it costs a lot, and you'll still be taking other penalties. (A low-level "Batman" game would have no one with that attribute. I've never seen anyone take it, but if I play another M&M character, I'll try one so I can be an unstoppable Terminator.)

The math is complex, preventing me from going into further detail.

FATE has "stress" and "consequences". You get 3-5 (depending on which version) physical and mental stress, though these can be raised passively with Endurance and Resolve, respectively (by 1 point per 2 ranks, max 5 ranks). Stress stacks up in a weird way, similar to M&M, although it's easier; if I could draw a diagram here I could have shown it to you. If you take more stress than you have stress boxes (generally caused by rolling over; attacks do very little damage in this system) you can suffer a consequence, ranging from minor ("sprain" or "bruise") to severe ("sword in the lungs"). When you have a consequence, an enemy can treat it like an aspect, getting a +2 bonus to a check against you (or getting to reroll a check against you), kind of like combat advantage. You can have multiple consequences, but only 1 of each of the four grades. After a battle, all stress and minor consequences heal up. Others require time and a plot-related explanation (eg surgery). It's actually pretty hard to suffer anything but a minor consequence, and you can voluntarily take another type of consequence to reduce an injury level (eg throwing your arm in the way, so the wound to your gut isn't quite as nasty, but now people can take advantage of your injured arm).

Raising skills (including Endurance) is very difficult; I'm not even sure if the core rules allow for this. Raising a skill where you already have a high rank is nearly impossible.

GURPS causes you to take penalties to your Health depending on how hard you were hit. Once that's gone, you take penalties to other stats (eg Agility), which will seriously mess you up. I don't know how healing works in GURPS, but most settings don't seem to have much in the way of non-scientific healing, which means you'll be hurting a long time. Armor resists damage.

Alternity does have hit points (stun/wound/mortal/fatigue points), the first two equal to your Con and the latter two equal to half that (though you can buy with advances; note that it's a low power system and buying multiple advances is extremely difficult). Hit points, in other words, do not automatically increase with levels. An Amazing hit (basically a critical hit) usually does damage straight to mortal points, and weapons of Good or Amazing quality (like a starship weapon) do the same thing. Most starship weapons do "stun" damage (which is pretty weak in spaceship combat, which takes a long time, but will be doing a decent amount of mortal damage to a, well, mortal. Why a spaceship is shooting at a person is a question for another time.)

Heroic characters get an average 10 per stat (the same six as in D&D, but Wisdom is Will and Charisma is Personality). A soldier might have a Con of 12, so 12/12/6/6 is a pretty common figure.

Armor resists damage, and the best way to avoid being hit is to build up your "resistance modifiers" (very roughly equal to a stat bonus to AC). Being a Free Agent gives you a free 1 step modifier to a resistance modifier of your choice, but Combat Specialists get a 1 step bonus to an attack skill of their choice, so it can match out. Acrobatics-dodge can give you bigger resistance bonuses, but at a cost of a penalty to attack skill checks. Cover increases resistance modifiers too. (If your character had a Dex of 13 [+2 resistance modifier] and got a good result on Acrobatics-doge [another +2 modifier] and threw themself behind a hedge [another +1 resist modifier] you could enjoy a +5 step modifier, which means the enemy is taking a -d20 penalty to their attack roll, although the Free Agent will be taking a 1 step penalty [+d4] to hit. However, a combat spec shooting at you with a rifle at close range [-1 step bonus for combat spec, -1 step bonus for using a rifle at close range] can mitigate that, even further with a "short burst" [another -1 step bonus] and a laser pointer [yet another -1 step bonus], so now they're only taking a +1 step penalty, which is a +d4 penalty to the attack roll.)

If you lose half or more of your stun or wound points, you take a 1 step penalty to all actions (cumulative). The penalty is 1 step per point of mortal and fatigue damage, so even a character who bought up extra mortal boxes is still hosed if they take any mortal damage, it just means they get to crawl away and live. Probably.

Healing is very weak.

Damage "leaks". If you were wearing a tactical vest (1d6-1 resist vs high impact attacks, which is another way of saying ballistic), and someone shot you for 4 points of wounds with a shotgun, you might roll high enough to resist all the incoming damage, but you still take half of that (in stun) from the shotgun, which the armor will not prevent. Things get weird if you're taking stun damage (from say a shock baton) and wound damage from another source.

It gets weird if you allow sci-fi (eg a Progress Level of 6+) or FX (magic, psionics, etc). For instance, powered armor (PL 6) gives you Good toughness (like a vehicle), and a Deflection Inducer could give you free resistance bonuses. Most forms of magic do not ignore armor, along with psychokinetic attacks, but telepathic attacks bypass armor completely -- though they do low damage -- and are resisted by the Will resistance modifier, which combat characters usually neglect. The tire telepathic power does 1 point of fatigue damage per point of success (Ordinary/Good/Amazing) which can easily cripple an enemy fast, even if you can't tap out their fatigue pool. Also, the weren race gets 1.5 times the expected points in stun/wound/mortal/fatigue. While having more mortal and fatigue doesn't do much

I suppose I should ask, what, exactly, are you looking for? Did you want combat to be deadly? Did you want the consequences of combat to be deadly? They're not the same thing! (IMO, deadly combat is good, deadly consequences are not. Once the battle is over, I have no problem with fast non-scientific healing.)

An example of a system that didn't work is A Song of Ice and Fire, which is the worst of both worlds. It's not even realistic in terms of the damage your character can take, but is relentlessly realistic in terms of how long it takes to recover. My own character, a stealthy social type (a spy, basically) with virtually no combat skill easily survived an assassination attempt by a character with a dagger. He only took 2 damage (-1 for leather armor), out of his possible 9 points. The DM joked he should have used a peasant with a farming implement, since two-handed weapons deal high damage.) In an earlier battle, our knight basically solo'd four archers (which do high damage) by himself, taking injuries (letting you subtract damage from an attack for a -1 universal penalty) and wounds (same but a - 2 penalty). He had to take a long route (it was a mountain) through difficult terrain, but he massacred the archers. However, wounds take so long to heal he was out of commission for a week, and it actually took longer since we had to move him by horse. My own character took 0 damage that battle, through the act of rushing a big angry guy and fighting defensively until the archers were inevitably killed, at which point the rest of the party could rescue him.
 
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Janx

Hero
Dread. the jenga RPG.

If you don't knock over the tower, you are not dead.

If you refuse to pull, you will get hurt. If you pull successfully, you are not hurt.

Dread also has no game stats or skills.

At best, if a task seems to be within the scope of your PC's ability (fixing things is feasible for an auto mechanic, surgery is not) then you probably have to make fewer pulls to succeed.
 

Iota

First Post
Mutants & Masterminds has a damage save system. ...

FATE has "stress" and "consequences". ...

GURPS causes you to take penalties to your Health depending on how hard you were hit. ...

Alternity does have hit points (stun/wound/mortal/fatigue points)...
Excellent info. I've seen M&M's system, but I'll look into those others a bit more.
I suppose I should ask, what, exactly, are you looking for? Did you want combat to be deadly? Did you want the consequences of combat to be deadly? They're not the same thing! (IMO, deadly combat is good, deadly consequences are not. Once the battle is over, I have no problem with fast non-scientific healing.)
A few things I'm looking for:
- The more big hits you take, the more your performance is hindered (you know, injuries that actually *injure* you)
- More dynamic than simple attrition
- Highly developed characters that can still be intimidated (within reason) by a weapon pointed at their chest by the town guard (not "I got 50 HP, so that 1d8 crossbow bolt is no threat, even with a crit")
- Some injuries that can be shrugged off, others that linger

An example of a system that didn't work is A Song of Ice and Fire...
That's a great "bad example." I would offer up Polaris as another. Disclaimer: I never played it, but I listed to a few recorded session and it struck me as way too open-ended (if I say "I poke the giant with my dagger and his head explodes," and no other player contests it, that's what happens and the combat is over).

Dread. the jenga RPG.
I gotta say...that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard of.
 


Celebrim

Legend
The one I've had the most fun with was WEG Star Wars (1e). The system seemed to perfectly capture the feel of being in the movies, and the original 1e book would still be my recommended system for Star Wars and probably for space opera and planetary romance in general.

I have on my shelf M&M which looks really good, but which as of yet I've never played. Speaking as a rules smith I have to say that both the 1e and 2e look like they were very well done, but I would lean toward the cleaner 2e.

I would note that neither are 'realistic' or 'gritty', attributes usually associated with getting rid of the highly abstract hit point system. In fact, based on my limited exposure. It seems to me like getting rid of hit points might work better for cinematic games.

Pretty much all the White Wolf games use a hybrid wound track/hit point system that I'm not very fond of. To me, on the spectrum its a lot closer to hit points than it is to wound track, except that you also gain penalties when you lose hit points. I've never found one White Wolf game it really works for, and in general White Wolf games are very mechanically clunky.

Someone mentioned GURPS. Though its a gritty and attempts to be realistic, its a traditional hit point game albiet with very limited hit points (usually) and high consequences to being hit.

There are a number of systems out there that I've not played but which I would like to that don't use hit points. The two most obvious ones for me are 'Dread' and 'Dogs in the Vineyard'.

I've never played it (and never really wanted to) but I think Warhammer fantasy uses a affliction based system and doesn't have hit points. I'm fairly sure that Aces and Eights and The Babylon project also eshew hit points in favor of a system that tracks where you get hit and the actual wounds that are inflicted on you. I've never played any system of this sort, but I'd imagine that they have a random gritty feel that might be suitable to low combat games or one shots.
 
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DnD_Dad

First Post
I don't know if it current incarnation is like this, but Shadowrun 2nd had a damage modifier bar that all characters possessed. It went from stunned to dead, and I've always loved it. It dictated what you condition was based on what type of damage you took and it allowed for damage of one type to become stepped up or down based on the character/armor/how successful they dodged or didn't. I advise checking it out.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
HârnMaster - it has injuries that are "additions" to the character, not depletions of a resource pool. It does have a "blood loss" pool that can be depleted until the character dies, but that happens as a result of (untreated) wounds, not as a direct result of being hit. Things you can die of include (but are not limited to ;) ):

- Blood loss, as mentioned.

- Infection of an open wound (i.e. not bruises)

- Shock (various sources - most frequently taking injuries, but screwing up magic can also cause it)

- Being unable to breathe for too long a time

- Massive trauma from an extremely powerful blow (e.g. a decapitating blow)

- Disease or poison

Overall, the system is a bit overcomplex for its own good, but the basic concepts around injury, fatigue, healing and the way magic works with all this make for subtle, deep and wonderful "explore our situation" games.

If you can find an old copy of the (out of print) first edition, it's a diamond in the rough. Two recent editions (HM3 from Columbia Games and HM 'Gold' pdf from Kelestia Publications) are available retail, for long and boring reasons I won't go into.
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
GURPS causes you to take penalties to your Health depending on how hard you were hit. Once that's gone, you take penalties to other stats (eg Agility), which will seriously mess you up. I don't know how healing works in GURPS, but most settings don't seem to have much in the way of non-scientific healing, which means you'll be hurting a long time. Armor resists damage.
Actually, GURPS has hit points, even though they generally don't increase as a characters gets more powerful. Until 3rd edtion hit points were based on health, but they are now bases on strength, even though it is possible to raise or lower them independently while creating a character.

If you sustain damage, you have a "shock" penalty to dice rolls, but only in the next round. Damage doesn't normally affect other stats.
 

Excellent info. I've seen M&M's system, but I'll look into those others a bit more.
A few things I'm looking for:
- The more big hits you take, the more your performance is hindered (you know, injuries that actually *injure* you)

Middle-earth Roleplaying (MERP) has this. (So do FATE and Warhammer, although both require big hits or "crits".) Please note that this creates "death spirals" and player enjoyment depends hugely on how long it takes to remove those injuries.

- Highly developed characters that can still be intimidated (within reason) by a weapon pointed at their chest by the town guard (not "I got 50 HP, so that 1d8 crossbow bolt is no threat, even with a crit")

That is never going to work. There's a problem if a the guard is also only going to do 1d8 damage; that's not going to intimidate a combat-capable person.

Think of an action movie. A hero is menaced by a mook with a shotgun, and said hero isn't wearing a bulletproof vest and isn't a Terminator. What do they do? They attack anyway. They're faster and more capable than the mook, and before the mook can get off a shot they're on their butt or being mashed against a wall while their weapon is being forcibly pointed elsewhere. If a PC can't even do something like that, they shouldn't be adventuring. So the key is to use a bunch of villains.

(You could probably do that in 4e though, especially if said guards are artillery. Four or five readied actions against one PC, each readying to use an encounter/recharge ability, would do (1.5 x [level + 8] damage + possible status effects) each per hit, which should knock a PC to 0 or below. However, expecting a melee guard to seriously threaten a PC with a single crossbow isn't reasonable.)

Naturally it's even harder to threaten an entire adventuring party. It's hard to come up with an excuse to put twenty guards in a room, all on the ready.

I've seen an example on another forum about d20 Modern. The GM was upset that a single villain using a rocket launcher wasn't able to intimidate the party. Sure they were scared of the 10d6 damage (that's a lot in d20 Modern, which usually has no magical healing too) but real-life soldiers would also have been scared, and still followed their training to scatter. Heroes should at least be that capable.

- Some injuries that can be shrugged off, others that linger

See first point. You should ask your players about this.
 
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