D&D 5E Life Without "the Gods" or Playing D&D without the DDG.

[Sword of Spirit]

The way I look at it, D&D's definition of what constitute a god has been incoherent for a long time. It isn't based on power, since there have been beings as (or even more) powerful than the gods (whether monstrous titanic entities, or unique persons like the Lady of Pain). It isn't totally based on worship, since arch-devils and demon princes have worshippers. It seems to be pretty darn arbitrary.

So here's how I do it, which can be interpreted as a setting without gods (or not, depending on how you look at it.)

Basically, a god is just what you call whatever you worship. It doesn't matter if its Zeus, Grazzt, Titania, or a troll with a rubber mask. It's a statement of relationship between you and some other being--it is not a creature type.

For the beings that have traditionally and arbitrarily been called gods, I basically refer to them as Immortals (with shades of BECMI), Powers (Planescape), or Immortal Powers. But I throw in the BECMI/Mystara twist that they are believed to all have originally been mortals. Because of this, worship tends to be softened to "following" for most people, and the terms god and deity (as strong relationship terms) are used much less often. Saying that such and so is your god or you worship such and so is less common that saying you follow the path of such and so. It isn't incorrect usage, but people might look at you funny if you use that sort of strong language on a regular basis.

As far as the actual source of divine power, I take the Immortals aspect even further. Divine power is just a natural part of the multiverse. It isn't divine because it comes from the Immortals--the Immortals are the Immortals because they have become filled with it. Basically Immortals are uber-clerics.

Clerics receive their spells through channeling divine energy--exactly as the Immortals themselves channel it. Generally this ability is ritually conferred on you through some sort of ordination, which you often get from other priests of a particular religions. But there isn't anything theoretically stopping one from finding a way to access this power without that. The important part is that your power isn't actually dependent on these Immortals. You don't get it from them, and they can't withhold it from you. Now, if they get wind that you are going around misbehaving in their name, and they are the type who cares and is active on their world, they might take corrective actions--but those actions involve sending servants, etc--not messing with your abilities.

In the final analysis, this results in a campaign that is more or less the same as standard D&D, with changes in how frequently certain terms are used and the ways powerful supernatural beings are viewed. Cosmologically, I get to throw in a bit of BECMI, Planescape, earlier edition openness to personally derived divine power, and old school, "we keep adventuring until we become gods" funness.

And, to focus on the point of the thread, the Athar Planescape faction have a pretty strong position with this take...

 

[Kinneus]

I wasn't picking a fight. Nostalgia is not condescending. Gam zeh y'avor.

I may have been overly sensitive just now. At least we can agree Dark Sun rocks, right?

My point remains, though, that you can remove clerics and paladins from a setting and the game world will still function fine.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I may have been overly sensitive just now. At least we can agree Dark Sun rocks, right?

My point remains, though, that you can remove clerics and paladins from a setting and the game world will still function fine.

Yes, it does! It's one of my two favorite settings.

And yes, you can and it will.

 

[Shasarak]

My favorite "god" in any universe is Karona the False God.

Why? Because she was only as powerful as what her believers believed her capable of.

And also because of her catchy theme song. (My Karona)

 

[Yaarel]

I prefer a simple cosmology. Mainly, this normal world. Sometimes I have an overlapping spirit world of some kind (paradise, cyber, or ether), but it is an aspect of this world. Theres no other place to go.

The minimalism works well for abstract monotheism, concrete animism, and subjective philosophies.

It is necessary to have different cultures with different worldviews.

 

[Yaarel]

I mainly use a Viking setting and a near future setting.

The Viking setting is animistic. Animists are essentially psionic. A nature spirit is the psychic presence of a particular locale or natural feature. It is similar to the outofbody projection of a mind, except this mind personifies the locale or natural feature. It can interact with a human in a dream or rarely in some kind of physical manifestation. It is possible to ask a psychic presence for help, and viceversa, but the relationship is about being good neighbors. Hospitality and sharing food is an important ethic in animism. For example, a human who visits the mind of a waterfall might throw some food into the waterfall, so its psychic presence can ‘taste’ it too. This kind of spirit world is nothing more than outofbody minds traveling thru this world.

For the other setting, I use a near-future version of reallife places. Here the spirit world is cyberspace. Virtual reality is widely available, and various websites offer thematic worlds that people can visit virtually. There is also a ‘grid’ overlaying the security cameras of the real world, allowing virtual travel thru real places plus the ability to physicalize avatars of oneself in remote locations.

I am also working on a medieval monotheistic setting, but its mythological accuracy is research intensive, so the setting is modest and vague in implementation. Here the spirit world is Paradise. It is ‘mystically’ encounterable but functions mainly as a source for inspiration, an ideal version of this world to visualize how to make this world a better place. It is literally impossible to imagine or describe what people do in Paradise, so as far as the game is concerned, individuals are ‘off camera’ until they return with a sense of wellbeing.

It is easy to mix-and-match these settings. In the medieval Viking setting, Vikings occasionally sail south to monotheistic lands. In the near-future setting, the Viking animism represents the Scandinavian region of cyberspace. The Scandinavians created the nature spirits as artificial intelligences of gaseous nanobots to safeguard the reallife natural environment. And so on.

 

[Yaarel]

My near future setting takes place approximately year 2040. Certain computers in certain parts of the world have already achieved singularity, the technological jump when smart computers build even smarter computers. Because these, early access to weirder nanobot tek is available to some humans. But other parts of the world still seem ‘normal’. I also throw in things things like, college students figuring out how to genetically engineer a fire-breathing dragon as a stunt.

Here are some predictions in play, mostly from Kurzweil.

Around 2025, a personal computer will be as intelligent as a human, can speak naturally and emotionally, and will pass the Turing test.

The following is the technology that will be available in 2029. Thus it describes what human culture will be like around 2035.

• A personal computer is 1000 times (!) more powerful than the human brain.
• The vast majority of computation is done by computers and not by human brains.
• Further progress has been made in understanding the secrets of the human brain. Hundreds of distinct sub-regions with specialized functions have been identified. Some of the algorithms that code for development of these regions have been deciphered and incorporated into neural net computers. Massively parallel neural nets, which are constructed through reverse-engineering the human brain, are in common use.
• [Human brain simulations are possible.]
• [Many humans ‘upgrade’ their own brain to keep up with the acceleration of intelligence.]
• The eyeglasses and headphones that used to deliver virtual reality are now obsolete thanks to computer implants that go into the eyes and ears. The implants are either permanent or removable. They allow direct interface with computers, communications and Internet-based applications. The implants are also capable of recording what the user sees and hears. Computer implants designed for direct connection to the brain are also available. They are capable of augmenting natural senses and of enhancing higher brain functions like memory, learning speed and overall intelligence. Direct brain implants allow users to enter full-immersion virtual reality—with complete sensory stimulation—without any external equipment. People can have their minds in a totally different place at any moment. This technology is in widespread use.
• [Telepathy via brain-to-brain networks is a common mode of communication.]
• Most communication occurs between humans and machines as opposed to human-to-human.
• By scanning the enormous content of the Internet, some computers "know" literally every single piece of public information [every scientific discovery, every book and movie, every public statement, etc.] generated by human beings. Computers are now capable of learning and creating new knowledge entirely on their own and with no human help.
• [Discoveries and inventions in every field of science and medicine accelerate.]
• The rise of Artificial Intelligence creates a real "robot rights" movement, and there is open, public debate over what sorts of civil rights and legal protections machines should have. The existence of humans with heavy levels of cybernetic augmentation and of larger numbers of other people with less extreme cybernetic implants lead to further arguments over what constitutes a "human being." Although computers routinely pass the Turing Test, controversy still persists over whether machines are as intelligent as humans in all areas. Artificial Intelligences claim to be conscious and openly petition for recognition of the fact. Most people admit and accept this new truth.
• Non-biological intelligence combines the subtlety and pattern recognition strength of human intelligence, with the speed, memory, and knowledge sharing of machine intelligence. Non-biological intelligence will continue to grow exponentially whereas biological intelligence is effectively fixed in its rate of growth.
• The manufacturing, agricultural and transportation sectors of the economy are almost entirely automated and employ very few humans.
• Across the world, poverty, war and disease are almost nonexistent thanks to technology alleviating want.
• [No more war? That is truly difficulty to imagine.]

The ‘singularity’ is estimated to occur around 2045. This is when computers that are much smarter than humans, design and build other computers. Then these new computers will build even smarter computers, and those ones even smarter ones. This is an ‘explosion of intelligence’. It is literally impossible to guess what these future generations of computers might be like, or what they will do. Or what the world will be like because of them.

Everything from internet, to medicine, to nanobots, hardware, wetware, phones, genetic engineering - genetic engineering! human speciation! - all of these scientific endeavors are accelerating faster and faster. There are profound - species altering - events that will take place within decades. Concepts that were science fiction - concepts that were the wildest trippiest messianic dreams - appear to be materializing in front of our eyes.

This is just the beginning. From then on, it gets even weirder. Faster.

Remember when the internet seemed to shop up out of nowhere?

 

[Yaarel]

Heh, when it comes to future settings, many assume Fighters are realistic and Wizards are unrealistic. But the opposite is true.

Nonliving robots will be far more effective and deadly than living humans could ever be. There wont be Stormtroopers. So human Fighters will be obsolete in the near future.

Meanwhile, technology grows weird and wonderful. Everything from Telepathy to Shapeshifting to Telekinesis will be a normal part of life. The human Wizards are what the future will look like.

Around 2045, non-biological intelligence will be a billion times (!) more capable than all biological intelligence put together.

Nanotech foglets (gaseous nanobots) will be able to make food out of thin air and create any object in physical world at a whim.

 

[steeldragons]

And you use 5e to play in this near-future setting?

Interesting. The Viking setting sounds cool/interesting. I think it safe to say "most" people playing a monotheistic medieval setting in D&D are not overly concerned with "mythological accuracy" [is that a thing? sounds like it could be an oxymoron]...wizards, dragons, elves, spell-casting clerics, and all that...and historic realism is spotty at best. I personally much prefer play in settings created whole-cloth more than "this is just Earth, but...", let alone looking for historic accuracy.

But that's me.

I still don't understand your aversion to polytheism, particularly in something like a Viking setting...biiiig polytheists the Norsemen. In a "medeival monotheistic" setting, going for accuracy, you would really have a celtic/pagan culture of at least duotheism if not poly-. But when dealing with general "mythological" stuff, pretty much everyone has a pantheon of deities and/or some kind of immortal/magical/"divine" beings [usually from the sky]. So what the aversion is there, to a point that their fluff "ruins" clerics in 5e [edit to add: since they've been a fairly standard given in D&D fluff from 1e on], must be a matter of personal belief or something and that is a threshold we do [and shall] not cross here on EN world.

Your settings sound interesting and obviously well thought out and researched. So that's cool. I'll just continue to prefer my D&D with its clerics, with a suite of deities (of my creation, in my personal case). But also with the avenues of possible animists, those "devoted to their beliefs", and/or faithful to "ideals" is as much mythological realism or color as a player might want. In my games, the gods, their religions, and clergies/churches are fairly well fleshed out, incorporate a myriad of mythological concepts, and are well understood as a part of the world and its development over the ages.

 

[Yaarel]

My Viking setting follows as ‘accurately’ as possible the worldview and concepts that the Norse Eddas describe, cautiously using texts before and after to resolve some of the obscure texts.

The medieval monotheistic setting is based on mystical texts from 1200s, that are cryptic and complex, but fascinating, with surprisingly modern sensibilities at times.

Because of the weird science of the near future, the setting feels highly ‘magical’. Today, sophisticated objects are being ‘printed in 3D’ - even living tissue. By about 2045, they will seem like they are being ‘conjured’ out of thin air.

Sadly, 5e is unsuitable for use because the 5e setting flavor is too deeply and repetitively baked into the mechanics.

I use a modified 3e.