Limiting Player choice useless?

[redwing00]

I'm playing in a modified game setting (published setting, altered to fit my creative concepts). It is a low magic setting (more of a rare magic....totally different in my opinion, but it seems most people describe these settings as such). But I have included most PrC's, etc in this world to give it a variety. However, specific PrC's and for that matter Core Classes, are sometimes only found in certain areas or under certain conditions. Even though I tell my players this is a low magic campaign setting and certain classes are rare, each group ran in this game seems to contain 2-3 of these rare classes, races, etc. (such as a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric.....2 of the four are magic users which are very rare). I know PC groups are exceptions and supposed to be allowed to play this, but how do I as a DM keep the unique feeling of these certain classes?

I was considering house ruling a category based system where races, classes, etc. are ranked by rare, uncommon, common, and abundant

and either of the following:

1. roll a percentage die to be allowed to even play a certain type of character (harder for each rank that is rarer).

2. EXP penalty (level adjustment) to rarer classes, races.

3. possibly just not allowing any PC's to play and only have few NPC's pop up.

Any ideas?

 

[Crothian]

Make the player work for it. Have them create a background that shows why they are one of the few and if it isn't up to your standards they cannot be that class.

Determine why these classes are rare. Perhaps the components for spells are hard to come by, thus making the casters work harder and spend more money to cast spells. Perhaps it takes more training. Don't allow a character to start at level one in any of these classes, make them multi class por make them rpestige classes.

 

[eris404]

Even though I tell my players this is a low magic campaign setting and certain classes are rare, each group ran in this game seems to contain 2-3 of these rare classes, races, etc. (such as a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric.....2 of the four are magic users which are very rare). I know PC groups are exceptions and supposed to be allowed to play this, but how do I as a DM keep the unique feeling of these certain classes?

Of course they're going to want to play those classes! Either they want to feel unique, special and/or powerful in your game world or the players truly enjoy playing those classes.

I was considering house ruling a category based system where races, classes, etc. are ranked by rare, uncommon, common, and abundant and either of the following:
1. roll a percentage die to be allowed to even play a certain type of character (harder for each rank that is rarer).
2. EXP penalty (level adjustment) to rarer classes, races.
3. possibly just not allowing any PC's to play and only have few NPC's pop up.
Any ideas?

Well, first I'd ask the players why they chose those classes. It could be just that they didn't realize that when you meant rare, you truly meant RARE. And as I said above, it could be that they chose those on purpose because they are supposed to be rare. Everyone wants to play a special character, so it's only natural.

Personal game tastes aside, you can still make a class feel unique and special by other NPCs reactions to the PCs who have the rare classes. For example, if clerics are rare, NPC commoners might treat them with awe and respect or make a lot of demands on them ("I am devout follower! Please heal my son!") or maybe treat them with suspicion or superstition. Also, if there aren't many characters of a particular class, the PC of that class might find that their resources are limited, so wizards might have to go through a great deal of trouble to find new spells when they rise in level, for example.

However, if really what you want to do is restrict the players from playing certain classes, just do so. I wouldn't penalize them for taking a class, because knowing the players in my group, they would resent me for doing so and not have any fun in the game.

 

[jerichothebard]

Well, your PCs are supposed to be extraordinary. That's sort of the point.

A key to that is to make sure that the surroundings reinforce that feeling.

I.e. the seriously buffed fighter is always asked to help with the lifting of heavy things in town.
The wizard ONLY ever finds spell books in odd, forgotten locations, not in the local pawn shop.
The cleric is mobbed with requests for healing and curing wherever he turns.

For a good primer on the rarity of clerics, turn to Dragonlance - Finding the Faith by Mary Kirchoff, from The Magic of Krynn, Tales Book 1 (wow, am I old-school, or what?)

No magic shops. No easy trade of magic goods.



As for your ideas, #1 is right out - I imagine the scenario would go something like this:

*roll d%*
04
aww, crikey, I wanted to play a magic user. a 4 means I can only play a fighter. Well, that character got knifed in the shower at boot camp.

*roll d%*
36
Well, I can play a rogue now... too bad that character double-crossed the thieves' guild in his old home town, and got a new pair of cement overshoes.

*roll d%*
89
Ok, now we're talking...


Either you let them reroll, in which case the rolls are meaningless, or you arbitrarily restrict them from playing their desires, which IMO, is never a good thing. I use the point buy option in my campaign so that there is never a complaint that they couldn't manage to roll the character they wanted.

#2 isn't terribly good either, although better than #1. By penalizing the XP of certain classes, you make them less effective over time, which is counter to the idea that they are powerful, unique professions. Further, in theory, for 3.x edition, the classes are supposed to be balanced (roughly), such that there is only one experience table. Changing this facet of the game hearkens back to 1e, and that was never fair in the first place.

#3 is an alright solution - I have done exactly this in my campaign. Wizards are not allowed for PC's. Arcane magic is illegal, and was heavily and thouroughly persecuted, so there is no one left to instruct them in the ways of the tome. Sorcerers are allowed but thier magic is still illegal, which presents all sorts of interesting challenges.

Net result: party is composed of a cleric, a bard cohort (who uses divine magic), a monk, a fighter/rogue, a paladin cohort, and two rangers, with guest appearances from a rogue and a druid in the past. I also set it in the Reniessance time-period, which means the fighter-types are wearing light armor and carrying short swords or rapiers. No tanks.

They have faced a couple sorcerers and an evil cleric, but never a wizard (stay tuned! That is coming up soon!).



You will need to pay attention to their power balance and treasure. Arcane magic, or spellcasters in general, provide a certain amount of artillery-style support, which the normal CR and EL take into account. Modifying the party dynamic be removing, for example, wizards and sorcerers, means that my party isn't able to dish out as much widespread damage as a 'normal' party of their level. (the lack of greatsword-weilding plate-mail-wearing hairy apes also contributes to this).

I have had to be careful with the monsters, and give them some more powerful treasure than they might otherwise get access to at their level, to keep them in balance. I think they are doing well, now, though, so they are about to get hammered pretty hard.

hope that helps!

jtb

 

[Silveras]

I'm playing in a modified game setting (published setting, altered to fit my creative concepts). It is a low magic setting (more of a rare magic....totally different in my opinion, but it seems most people describe these settings as such). But I have included most PrC's, etc in this world to give it a variety. However, specific PrC's and for that matter Core Classes, are sometimes only found in certain areas or under certain conditions. Even though I tell my players this is a low magic campaign setting and certain classes are rare, each group ran in this game seems to contain 2-3 of these rare classes, races, etc. (such as a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric.....2 of the four are magic users which are very rare). I know PC groups are exceptions and supposed to be allowed to play this, but how do I as a DM keep the unique feeling of these certain classes?

I was considering house ruling a category based system where races, classes, etc. are ranked by rare, uncommon, common, and abundant

and either of the following:

1. roll a percentage die to be allowed to even play a certain type of character (harder for each rank that is rarer).

2. EXP penalty (level adjustment) to rarer classes, races.

3. possibly just not allowing any PC's to play and only have few NPC's pop up.

Any ideas?

I think you are looking at the dividing line between "story" and "game" in D&D. D&D is a game, a participatory event in which the players and DM tell a story.

I can tell you from experience that forcing the players to roll to be a certain class might work in the short term, but they will become disenchanted and go to other, more "friendly" games. I did it with races... I wanted the campaign region to be human-dominated, and everyone wanted to play Elves (1st & 2nd edition). I made them roll a % chance to be non-human. They got 3 rolls. If they did not like the 3 races they rolled up, they had to play a human. Later, I changed my requirement to just a flat "2/3 of the party must be human".

None of my players liked it. Some left. Some stayed, taking it as a challenge. Of the ones that stayed, none were really happy with the idea. Looking back, I can see their point. Feeling like you are "stuck with" a race or class you did not want is a lousy way to start a campaign.

Realistically, your best bet is to let them play what they want, but drive the consequences appropriately. If a PC insists on being a Wizard, fine. But when it comes time to level up, there won't be anyone to train him. This, of course, works best when you use training as a campaign element. If the player wants to be a Cleric, that's fine, too. But remember that he should get the full experience, including the 3 AM waking because someone heard a noise in the village graveyard.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I know PC groups are exceptions and supposed to be allowed to play this, but how do I as a DM keep the unique feeling of these certain classes?

Make their uniqueness count for something...

First, the Cleric: He is an icon of faith, an instrument of his god. Members of his religion (particularly high ranking church officials and the like) will constantly call upon him and his powers, to which the Cleric is obligated to fulfill as a matter of duty and faith. As his fame grows, the common folks (hearing tales of the healer and champion) will horde upon him for healing and the blessings of his diety in a manner resembling teen girls chasing The Beetles through an airport.

Second, the Wizard: If your using the "two free spells per level", don't (or, more specifically, allow it only if the PC actually did take the time to research and study). Don't assume access to a library or laboratory (get your hands of FFG's Spells & Spellcraft if you can, and Quint Wizard touches on this a little as well). Make Item Creation Feats related specifically to process; Individual Magic Items should still require individual research in the same manner as a spell. In addition, he may very well have the opposite problems of the Cleric: Common folks may fear him, fleeing his vicinity or over charging him, denying him service, etc. His reputation may cause him problems: summon monster I is confused by witnesses as having conjured demons, leading to religious institutions calling him out to prove his loyalty to goodness by performing several tasks in the name of the church, etc.

Yes, PCs should be the exception, and that means (sometimes) allowing non-standard choices. However, the rarer the choice, the more that rarity should effect game play as it unfolds at the table. Don't screw 'em, of course; But the weight of their choice should be equal to the choice.

 

[DMScott]

I'm playing in a modified game setting (published setting, altered to fit my creative concepts). It is a low magic setting (more of a rare magic....totally different in my opinion, but it seems most people describe these settings as such). But I have included most PrC's, etc in this world to give it a variety. However, specific PrC's and for that matter Core Classes, are sometimes only found in certain areas or under certain conditions. Even though I tell my players this is a low magic campaign setting and certain classes are rare, each group ran in this game seems to contain 2-3 of these rare classes, races, etc.

Any time you tell players that a given class or race is rare, that pretty much guarantees some will want to play them. The rare stuff is seen as cool, or powerful, or a role-play hook, or whatever. Saying "so-and-so is rare" without changing any game mechanics is IMHO not a good way of restricting access.

An approach that might work for you: if you have base classes you want to keep rare, turn them into prestige classes. So if you don't want spellcasting priests, turn "cleric" into a prestige class and make most NPC priests Experts. The class is still eventually available to PCs, but the rarity will make more sense and the delay in accessing abilities will probably make the class less attractive.

 

[kamosa]

3. possibly just not allowing any PC's to play and only have few NPC's pop up.

Any ideas?

Ouch, that's hard core DMing!

In Darksun channeller(mages) were to be killed on sight and they left visible destruction in the surrounding area when they cast. I still never saw a party with out a channeller.

A better question is why is it important to you that the party conform to the parameters of the world and is it important to stop the players from playing the characters they desire to play.

 

[barsoomcore]

Look, it's your world, your game, you can set any conditions you like. However:

1. If something is rare, OF COURSE your players will want to play it. They'll want to play it BECAUSE it's rare, because they want to play HEROES, and heroes aren't like everybody else.

2. If something is POSSIBLE, then any method used to make it DIFFICULT is unfair and will make your players unhappy.

That said, it's perfectly possible to run a game where magic-users are rare -- don't allow players to play magic-users. All wizards are part of a secret, blasphemous cult that jealously guards the secrets of arcane magic. All sorcerers are identified at birth and slaughtered. Or, even simpler: "There are no sorcerers on my world. Magic doesn't work that way."

You're the DM. You can say whatever you want is true. It's possible nobody will want to play in your game, but I've been running Barsoom for over three years with only Rogue and Fighter available as base classes, and never had a complaint. Just don't be wishy-washy about it. Say "It is this way" or "It is that way" and don't worry about allowing loopholes. Then nobody gets their feelings hurt because Jason got to play an elf and they didn't.

 

[Altalazar]

I think it tends to be bad, as others have said, to force players to play characters / races / classes they aren't interested in. I think it is much more interesting to allow them to play what they want, but then work it into the overall storyline.

Before the book detailing monster PCs came out i had a player who was interested in playing a Gnoll - a Gnoll druid, to be exact. I just made up my own rules to deal with it (which incidentally turned out better than the "official" version, IMHO). Sure, at first he was a bit tougher than the rest of the party, but it evened out quickly - and it made for an interesting character (and some VERY interesting role-playing - people don't tend to take well to gnolls...)

The other PCs got along with the gnoll ok because that was part of the background of all of the characters. Though some got along better than others.

I could have just said "no" - but then we all would have missed out on some great gaming moments.