D&D 5E Limiting use of cantrips - what are the consequences?

[Skyscraper]

Pursuant to another idea I posted here about increasing spell power by toying with the save-each-round mechanic for ongoing spell effects (such as paralysis), namely reducing the number of saves one gets, I'm now thinking about cantrips. More particularly, the flavor of unlimited cantrips is not something that fits well within the custom low-magic campaign world that I wish to offer my players. I like magic to be scarce, but meaningful.

Has anyone toyed with - or implemented - the idea of limiting cantrip use? For example, they could work like other spells with a limited number of spell slots.

The obvious downside for casters, is of course that they might have to revert back to clearly suboptimal combat options once they're out of cantrips and spells. Although this is less likely to be a problem in my games due to rare occurences when there are numerous battles in a single day, it's still a very valid concern.

So, what do you think about this?

How would you implement such a system?

What type of counter-measure would you consider for casters, especially ones that have poor non-magic battle options, to mitigate the loss of unlimited cantrips?

How many cantrips slots would you allow per day, or how would you handle this limitation generally?

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks,

Sky

Edit: you might want to jump to a later post of mine in this thread, right here, where I'm now trying to focus on more specific questions.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm fairly certain we've had a couple threads such as this with regards to restricting cantrips, but I don't remember how long ago they appeared. Not sure if the board's Search function would find them for you in this case (I can never remember which parts of Search were restricted to those who subscribed to the boards)... but if you or one of our other posters can find the threads, they have methodology for doing exactly what you were looking for I believe.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Balance wise, if you maybe limit it to a total of 18-24 cantrips per day (each individual cantrip maybe 5 or 6 uses per day, or 2 or 3 uses per short rest), you'd be fine.

The biggest consequence will be that players won't be as willing to use a cantrip when a crossbow will do. Pretty solid for a low-magic game, honestly, and a pretty small change!

 

[bedir than]

My campaign limits the use of cantrips to each known cantrip can be cast at 1+caster level+controlling attribute bonus (minimum 1) time per long rest. We also use a lower encounter structure, but use the slower healing variant rule. This means that cantrips are available at roughly same amount as arrows/bolts/slingstones.

And by having the limitation the impact on the world is lessened. A caster isn't thinking of casting 150 firebolts to blast down a door.

 

[Mercule]

My gut reaction is that there are two main impacts:
1) casters will fall back on crossbows, thrown daggers, and staves more often
2) magic feels less like a "go to" solution, even for casters

Whether those are features or bugs is a very personal perspective. I've let magic-users have prestidigitation for free since the original Unearthed Arcana came out, even though my style has always been fairly low magic, swords and sorcery. Including damaging cantrips changed the feel a bit, but not as much as I thought it would.

If you decide to restrict cantrips, I think [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] is on the right path.

 

[Noctem]

IF you make cantrips more restricted in their use, what do you expect your players to do instead? 5e already suffers from copy pasted turns in practice, ie the fighter says he moves + uses an action for 3 turns in a row without variation. Limiting how often cantrips are used just seems to encourage this kind of behavior since the reason you would use a cantrip in the first place is so you don't use a higher level slot. Is the goal here to try to encourage or force players into using slots?

 

[Skyscraper]

[MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6789971]bedir than[/MENTION]: thanks for the suggestions.
[MENTION=6789971]bedir than[/MENTION]: do I understand that a level 7 wizard with 16 INT (+3) would get 10 uses of each cantrip, per day? Does that really limit use of cantrips?

To both of you, and others: do you find that having super large amounts of limited-use cantrips unnecessarily increases the book keeping? Meaning, does the wizard with 10 uses of each cantrip, really use up all those slots?

p.s.: [MENTION=98938]DeF[/MENTION]CON1: I did search the forums but (a) I stink at forum searching (any tips?) and (b) I didn't find anything.

 

[bedir than]

[MENTION=6789971]bedir than[/MENTION]: do I understand that a level 7 wizard with 16 INT (+3) would get 10 uses of each cantrip, per day? Does that really limit use of cantrips?

To both of you, and others: do you find that having super large amounts of limited-use cantrips unnecessarily increases the book keeping? Meaning, does the wizard with 10 uses of each cantrip, really use up all those slots

It definitely limits at lower levels, but from a world building aspect that's the important place. Let's say 90% of your world's intelligent peoples are essentially NPC commoners and only 10% are capable of leveling (this is totally off my head right now). Those 10% are exponentially more likely to be Tier 1 than Tier 2, etc. So that means magic is much more limited.

While there is some bookkeeping, most PCs haven't come close to hitting their limit, even at 1st level. Just like most don't use up 100% of their arrows/bolts/stones.

The limits' effect is more conceptual than mechanical.

 

[crashtestdummy]

You should also consider class balance. Sorcerers, for example, get fewer spells, but more cantrips when compared to Bards. Part of the class concept seems to be implicitly that they'll make heavier use of cantrips and so they have more cantrip options. Restricting the use of cantrips therefore reduces the power of the Sorcerer at low levels more than it would a Bard. This is less of an issue at higher levels where there are more spell slots available, but it's still something that should be taken into account before changing the rules.

 

[Skyscraper]

Interesting points.

So, with only conceptual limitations, how about I mention to the players the following: you have about X spell slots for your cantrips. We won't be keeping track of those uses, unless you're spamming them and I consider you're close to hitting your limits, at which point I'll issue a warning, that means that you have Y uses left.

So, for example, I could say that a caster has 25 uses of his cantrips, and I'll warn him when he has 5 left. He then needs to start book keeping.

This has the advantage of avoiding cantrip book keeping while still getting the flavor of lower-magic through.

As to how I come to a decision about the total number, I'll eventually pin a target number I have in mind, and come up with an appropriate equation, or just put a number down - who cares really. Whether it's an equation or not, it's still a house rule so might as well choose an arbitrary number. The intent is, as you say, to avoid the 100 fire bolts on the door type of situation. However, I'm (mildly) concerned about increase book keeping.