D&D 4E List of Potential New Martial Practices

[Garthanos]

Martial Artistry and Martial Prodigy.

It seems to me you are basically recreating a skill system, although a somewhat idiosyncratic one...

That is rather arguably an implication of how Martial Practices in a general sense were done. However my tying in Martial Techniques and access to Martial Grandmaster Trainings from the same page, I think brings this massively back to martial.

The name of the feat to gain Martial Practices -- Practiced Study and subsequent Practiced Prodigy are utterly mundane and lack implication of Martial Power. And since they are now the Access feats to Martial Arts, I have renamed them in my Character Builder

Martial Artistry and Martial Prodigy.

 

[Garthanos]

If we did open Martial Practices up as a Skillful Practices for instance it might still be nice to have a subset for Martial Archetypes , or we could go through and mark things like The Art of the Sensei/Martial Mastery as being Martial Only.

 

[Garthanos]

4e Skills Are Baroque

Skills in 4e are

raw skill application

skill specific functions/powers defined in skills
including trained only capabilities.

skill application in a skill challenge

aid other actions

skills as applications towards long term narrow value specialized effects in martial practices
(and to a lesser extent in rituals)

Skill Powers.

hunters knacks / any class specific things of that ilk which should never have been made class specific.

Any of the feats which interact with those as well.

The games skill system is at this point in the story baroque

 

[Garthanos]

So this gives two elements which can be described as methods for enhancing Aid Other or Aid Attack/Defense: Skillful Guide, and the Battle Speech.

It does occur to me that skillful guide might need to be more specific actions just like Mountaineering is climbing... not athletics.

And battle speech is general enough to be closer to magic item expensive. But is very martial in function.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That is rather arguably an implication of how Martial Practices in a general sense were done. However my tying in Martial Techniques and access to Martial Grandmaster Trainings from the same page, I think brings this massively back to martial.

The name of the feat to gain Martial Practices -- Practiced Study and subsequent Practiced Prodigy are utterly mundane and lack implication of Martial Power. And since they are now the Access feats to Martial Arts, I have renamed them in my Character Builder

Martial Artistry and Martial Prodigy.

This is probably redundant to commentary I've made before, but my answer to this whole dilemma was to slot both MPs and 'Rituals' (which actually includes a bunch of other stuff like Alchemy as well, though it has been broadened considerably into a more general thing) into a role where ALL they do is provide the narrative justification for bringing some different skill into play in the current challenge, plus possibly some narrative dimension to go with it. So maybe a ritual that lets you fly provides a way to substitute Acrobatics for Endurance in some challenge involving rapid cross-country travel. In this sense these rituals actually don't have fixed mechanical 'implementations' anymore. They have narrative descriptions which the player invokes in order to make a check with an appropriate skill (and this may not always be the same skill, although most rituals/practices are pretty suggestive). The upshot being that practices implemented this way will never upstage skills, nor generally lead to enforced incompetency (a character can still exercise his skills even without any of these extra plot coupons, just maybe a bit less flexibly).

The interesting thing with putting Alchemy into this paradigm is it 'fixed' Alchemy. Now 'potions' and such are narrative hooks, just like rituals. Instead of just being fairly trivial consumable items that produce a fixed effect, instead they become a rich source of plot possibilities. Ones that character's can pay for and 'stockpile' ahead of time, creating a much more dynamic 'planning ahead' mechanism than that present with 4e's standard game. A planning ahead game that does NOT consist in just picking the 'I win button' that was often the case in AD&D (or at least a centralization of plot mechanics onto casters who could deploy highly specific problem solvers from their spell lists). The 'well prepared' character could now be of any class, and his preparations won't actually lead to some short-circuiting or abasement of the challenge, but simply add to the opportunities to employ your skills in fun ways! This will help the PCs in the sense of giving them a chance to use their best skills more often, but that is a relatively benign and fun outcome. I think even [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] will approve

 

[Garthanos]

So maybe a ritual that lets you fly provides a way to substitute Acrobatics for Endurance in some challenge involving rapid cross-country travel.

And the Wuxia monk calls it Tree top runner... exerting his vitality point to do it.

 

[Garthanos]

The upshot being that practices implemented this way will never upstage skills, nor generally lead to enforced incompetency (a character can still exercise his skills even without any of these extra plot coupons, just maybe a bit less flexibly).

A fundamental game design issue is providing specializations when the root thing is to some extent vague enough it might already encompass them....ie skill challenge encourages fairly broad use of skills mp and rituals might be a mechanism which fights against that broadness unless the DM, grants them pay for successes bits broadly.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

And the Wuxia monk calls it Tree top runner... exerting his vitality point to do it.

Yes, indeed! That seems like another advantage, because there's really very little detailed mechanical coupling involved, the IDEA can be reworked and really you don't have to worry about it that much. If wizards can fly with a ritual, then Wuxia monks can do 'wire fu' and get the same results. I reserve the VP cost for letting you avoid a chance of failure or to change the scenario in some way. It actually is a rule that I attached to SCs instead of rituals/practices per-se (because I also encapsulate all conflict, and thus all checks, within challenges, this allows the elaboration of challenge mechanics as the main approach to managing different options when using skills, powers outside of combat, and practices).

 

[pemerton]

Having been summoned, . . .

I used rituals in my game - I don't think they're perfect, and their are obvious issues with costs not scaling properly. But they haven't broken anything. I like [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s idea as an alternative way of doing them.

I've never used Martial Practices because of concerns about crowding out ordinary skill use. It sounds like they aren't needed in AbdulAlhazred's system either, because if magic is what lets you subsitute something else for the defaul, martial ability would involve using the default.

 

[Garthanos]

One of the problems with "martial" being a default is a classic that D&D has always struggled with and i have characterized thusly.

"Wizards and Warriors both need explicit abilities/powers for what seem like opposite reasons; The Wizard has no inherent limits and thus need them to be defined and the Warrior need permission to be awesome" ->> (so they can be enabled to go beyond assumed limitations which enforce mundanity ).

I see martial practices with their surge cost as enabling a heroic skill extreme that goes beyond the normal that was defined in the skill descriptions (some do have explicit caps) or perhaps enabling one to do something explicitly paragon like, while in heroic tier (ok that too is vague) etc ... some of the existing mp may be too mundane and really should be within the normal skill scope -- that needs fixed I feel without guidelines heroic can end up mundane.

Abdul by treating rituals and mp as fully the same solved this problem and by only making the surge/ingredient cost boost something for challenges and auto successes and addressed the issue of spending on something which is sometimes just not valuable. (players don't like that).