Long live the vampires - OR - Why does Turning have to exist?

[Nonlethal Force]

Well, the holy symbol fear could still be included in individual monster descriptions - like vampires. Personally, I see no reason for liches to be afraid of holy symbols. Granted that they are created from largely arcane energy ... they also make strong use of divine energy as well. I personally don't think mindless undesad should fear holy symbols, either. And mummies? Mummies are often the cared for remains and the people who did the caring are highly religious! Why should mummies fear the religious? I do agree, however, that if ones world is designed to follow Western myth that vampires fearing a holy symbol is legit.

However, most people strongly make the case that D&D not need follow real life ... so Western mythology need not absolutely be followed.

Oh, and unless it is a typo, I am assuming AE used by another posted stands for Arcana Evolved ... Monte Cooke's updated ruleset.

 

[pvandyck]

Don't forget the turn mechanic works for other things than undead. Certain cleric domains grant the ability to turn other creature types, like the elemental domains, plants. I've even been very interested in using a Scarred-Lands-specific domain that allows the cleric to turn (dominate-ish) creatures that are the same type as the cleric.

 

[FrostedMini1337]

Turn/Rebuke makes sense for some clerics, but not for others which is my problem with it. There's no: "I don't care either way" option. Does my cleric of love and music really care that much about undead? Why did they waste time teaching him this crap at church, he had hymns and prayers to learn.

 

[Sejs]

Also, a question: What is this "AE" that was mentioned as having an alternate turning mechanic.

Oh, and unless it is a typo, I am assuming AE used by another posted stands for Arcana Evolved ... Monte Cooke's updated ruleset.

Nah, AE as in Area Effect. I'm not actually conversant with Arcana Evolved, though I've been meaning to remedy that.

Anyway, there's an alternative turning mechanic that appears in Complete Divine (p87). Streamlines turning immensely. Cleric spends a standard action to turn undead and channels a 30' burst of positive energy centered on them that deals 1d6 points of damage per cleric level to all undead in range, with a will save (10 + 1/2 clr lvl + cha mod) for half damage. Clerics that normally bolster undead do the same thing, but with negative energy instead of positive, healing rather than harming. Turn resistance functions then like any normal sort of energy resistance, taking damage off the top.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I'd like to see it changed to a spell (like Scare or Cause Fear that specifically effects Undead and/or Outsiders). Causes panic in a cone, Will save reduces to shaken. Subject to SR.

Remove turning from clerics and add as a Spell-like ability as a Domain power.

 

[shilsen]

Nah, AE as in Area Effect. I'm not actually conversant with Arcana Evolved, though I've been meaning to remedy that.

Anyway, there's an alternative turning mechanic that appears in Complete Divine (p87). Streamlines turning immensely. Cleric spends a standard action to turn undead and channels a 30' burst of positive energy centered on them that deals 1d6 points of damage per cleric level to all undead in range, with a will save (10 + 1/2 clr lvl + cha mod) for half damage. Clerics that normally bolster undead do the same thing, but with negative energy instead of positive, healing rather than harming. Turn resistance functions then like any normal sort of energy resistance, taking damage off the top.

Just one correction: It's DC 10 + cleric level + Cha modifier, which makes it much more difficult to save against than if it were half cleric level.

I'm not sure if that is an error, since most special abilities use "half level" for DCs and not "level".

 

[WizarDru]

As the title asks.

Well, the title asks a different question because it includes vampires, one of the most classic 'turned' undead in tales and fiction, as is mentioned up-thread. The origin of the term 'un-dead' comes from Bram Stoker's Dracula, after all. Many of the creatures in the category of undead all tie to similar such themes. Ghosts, revenants and many similar undead remain due to unfinished business and sheer willpower....and the cleric's archetypical concept is that of the holy warrior who turns them back. In most cases, the person who townsfolk turn to deal with the undead, even if only for advice, is the local bishop or wiseman. How do you get rid of a hopping vampire? The same way you do a ghoul or a revenant. Beat them up until you can re-inter them, often with a piece of paper with a talisman or letter of absolution to make suer they don't return.

Why not merely remove the mechanic? Would anyone actually consider the cleric anything but powerful even if it did not turn undead?

The turning mechanic is a really nice mechanic that gives the cleric something to do other than heal. Most of the time, when I hear how powerful the cleric is, it sounds like the cleric in question is strong on paper, but only if he's not a team player. Unless the party is dependent on potions, UMD'ed wands and the like, they're going to need the cleric in the thick of battle to heal and remove negative effects. The downside of being the party medic is that you don't get to do much directly against the enemy. Turning, clumsy as it is mechanically, allows the cleric to get a nice, limited team ability. Would the game break down if the cleric lost the turning ability? Not at all. But it really only takes away a good, flavorful ability that benefits the team, not the cleric.

A better argument might be, what good is turning at high levels, where the undead rapidly outsrip a level-appropriate's cleric ability to affec tethem.

 

[Darren Ravenshaw]

Turn/Rebuke makes sense for some clerics, but not for others which is my problem with it. There's no: "I don't care either way" option. Does my cleric of love and music really care that much about undead? Why did they waste time teaching him this crap at church, he had hymns and prayers to learn.

Thats more of the everyone in this class is the same regardless of race, enviroment, society, or up bringing, until you gain levels in the Prestige class, that allows you to play the type of character you wanted to play from the start.

As for Turning, the biggest flaw(beyond that it becomes useless at higher levels) is that it can turn a normal encounter into a deadly one, which is the exact opposite of what it is suppose to do.

 

[Bad Paper]

I see no reason for liches to be afraid of holy symbols. Granted that they are created from largely arcane energy

I like the idea of the greedy wizard gaining the Ultimate Power of lichdom and then ironically being affected by this thing to which he had not given much thought. It emphasizes the short-sighted "power grab" of the lich.

 

[frankthedm]

As for Turning, the biggest flaw(beyond that it becomes useless at higher levels) is that it can turn a normal encounter into a deadly one, which is the exact opposite of what it is suppose to do.

How does tha happen? Enemies spot the fleeing undead? Undead return at a bad time? Cleric accidently blows open negative energy locked doors allowing for a flood of foes?