Long Term Pickpoqueting

[Celebrim]

Depends on how you define sleight of hand I suppose...stuff you're mentioning is already part of the broad definition of the skill.

There may be some overlap, particularly with bluff (because of the synergy bonus), but where is the overlap with Appraise or with Spot? These skills don't even depend on the same ability score. They don't have a synergy unless you invent one.

I think its perfectly reasonable to suggest that the amount you get from your work is dependent on some skill like Appraise, and the chances you get away with it is dependent on Sleight of Hand. For example, your magician friend is quite the talented pick pocket, but you haven't said anything about him that suggests he has the ability to distinguish a name brand luxury watch (easily fenced) at a distance from a cheap knock off or no name brand, or that he can tell an actual gold watch from a faux gold or gold plated one. Your friend could conceivably end up stealing a bunch of watches that a fence wouldn't buy from him because they have no resale value (they are $9.99 at Wal-Mart), and certainly no resale value compared to the risk. That would leave your friend on the street corner going, "Hey, ya wanna buy a watch?", which is a whole different business which I hope you agree has little to do with sleight of hand directly. In short, if your friend doesn't know what to steal, your friend would probably make more money standing on the street corner and doing performances for whatever he can beg into a hat than pick pocketing.

 

[Arkhandus]

Bayonet:
You've got a point there. If the pickpocket is successful, he or she is going to get the attention of either local authorities (after the first few days) or the local thieves' guild or something, and will probably have to try something to avoid getting caught by them, after spending an extended period working the area rather than just a brief filching spree.

Aust:
A good suggestion there, too.


Celebrim:
But your ideas of handling it, Celebrim, basically neuter and punish the player and his or her PC, rather than accomplishing any greater feel of realism or enjoyment of the game. -_-

I don't mean to be rude, but I do have to point out the flaw in your reasoning; it's way too complicated and makes it difficult for the PC to do just a little something on the side, between adventures, likely at the cost of actual adventuring prowess. He shouldn't have to invest in a Profession (pick-pocket) skill or other stuff, just to do something he already does well (through putting several ranks into Sleight of Hand), for example.


The PHB doesn't have rules for pick-pocketing over a long stretch of time because that's not normally what an adventuring rogue does; he or she is more likely to do a bit of pick-pocketing when it's convenient, or when he/she needs to filch some important item off of an NPC. Thus it's not covered; otherwise the skill descriptions might include mention of synergies with Sleight of Hand for Appraise, Profession, Spot, and so on and so forth, if the designers' intent was to represent using the skills outside of the normal adventuring manner.

It's entirely up the DM's purview to apply synergies and such where he or she feels they are appropriate, but that does not mean a PC Rogue should have to spent 75% of his or her skill points just on being a decent pick-pocket on the few occasions he might be in town between adventures and want to make some dishonest coin.


By your description of how it would be handled, it implies that you would expect a PC Rogue to use every skill point at his/her disposal just to sneak past some guards at night and do a bit of spying, and basically be capable of no other skills except those pertaining to sneaking and basic spying. You'd expect them to make Spot checks, Listen checks, Sense Motive checks, Bluff checks, Hide checks, Move Silently checks, Search checks, and Disguise checks just to get to their spying position without being found suspicious and thrown into jail, not to mention any Climb, Jump, Balance, Escape Artist, Swim, or Tumble checks they might need just to reach the location they'll be spying from.

It seems like you'd expect the Rogue to focus his entire skillset (or the vast majority of it) just on one very narrow task. Not at all fair to the player, or the rest of the group if they have to sit through a few hours of you grilling the Rogue player on what exactly he does to find out what he should spy on, where he should do that from, how to get there, and then exactly how he gets past every guard, passerby, and easily-frightened alleycat along the way, then how he exactly he gets the information he needs and who he decides to spy on, and everything.....


This is the impression you give with what you're suggesting. That an overly complicated and extensive, time-consuming amount of effort go into handling one single task or instance of a task. And that the Rogue's player should have to suck at almost everything else just so he can be decent or successful at this one kind of task that comes up only occasionally.

The skills in the Player's Handbook should already cover their niches individually, with little need to make a big affair of each skill's use by making it require half a dozen others. Sleight of Hand already represents the necessary skills of a pick-pocket or stage magician, at least when it comes to performing most acts of legerdemain and quick hands. Other skills can help a bit, but should not be considered necessary for successful and profitable pick-pocketing. Anyone with decent ranks in the skill should be assumed to have learned the signs of someone who probably doesn't carry money on them (or not much), or someone who likely has a fat purse and is too happy-go-lucky to pay much attention to it, etc.

 

[Celebrim]

But your ideas of handling it, Celebrim, basically neuter and punish the player and his or her PC, rather than accomplishing any greater feel of realism or enjoyment of the game.

I'm afraid with a start like that, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. We gave up on strict realism when we decided to abstract a lengthy process of pickpocketing down to a few simple die rolls.

I don't mean to be rude...

I will never think you rude for disagreeing with me. However, don't expect me to agree with your reasoning.

...but I do have to point out the flaw in your reasoning; it's way too complicated...

Two die rolls and a handful of intuitive circumstance modifiers.

...and makes it difficult for the PC to do just a little something on the side, between adventures, likely at the cost of actual adventuring prowess.

I don't see how.

He shouldn't have to invest in a Profession (pick-pocket) skill or other stuff, just to do something he already does well (through putting several ranks into Sleight of Hand), for example.

As I said, there is more to being a pickpocket than just good sleight of hand. This is one of the reasons many pickpocket scams involve partners - one to do the reel and the other to do the pull.

The PHB doesn't have rules for pick-pocketing over a long stretch of time because that's not normally what an adventuring rogue does; he or she is more likely to do a bit of pick-pocketing when it's convenient, or when he/she needs to filch some important item off of an NPC. Thus it's not covered; otherwise the skill descriptions might include mention of synergies with Sleight of Hand for Appraise, Profession, Spot, and so on and so forth, if the designers' intent was to represent using the skills outside of the normal adventuring manner.

I disagree. These synergies aren't mentioned because don't exist. The task to be accomplished involves the application of multiple independent skills.

It's entirely up the DM's purview to apply synergies...

There is a big difference between synergies and circumstance modifiers.

...but that does not mean a PC Rogue should have to spent 75% of his or her skill points just on being a decent pick-pocket...

75% of thier skill points? You do realize that Rogues start with 8 skill points per level, and IME many rogue players choose to make INT thier highest stat.

By your description of how it would be handled, it implies that you would expect a PC Rogue to use every skill point at his/her disposal just to sneak past some guards at night and do a bit of spying, and basically be capable of no other skills except those pertaining to sneaking and basic spying. You'd expect them to make Spot checks, Listen checks, Sense Motive checks, Bluff checks, Hide checks, Move Silently checks, Search checks, and Disguise checks just to get to their spying position without being found suspicious and thrown into jail, not to mention any Climb, Jump, Balance, Escape Artist, Swim, or Tumble checks they might need just to reach the location they'll be spying from.

Well, in a word, "Yes I would." Sounds exciting to me, and I don't see why someone's Move Silently check necessarily makes someone a good swimmer. Now, what it might do is let him find a way to get in without swimming at all, possibly in combination with another skill.

It seems like you'd expect the Rogue to focus his entire skillset (or the vast majority of it) just on one very narrow task.

You just listed 14 broadly useful skills. That's hardly a narrow skillset.

Not at all fair to the player, or the rest of the group if they have to sit through a few hours of you grilling the Rogue player on what exactly he does to find out what he should spy on, where he should do that from, how to get there, and then exactly how he gets past every guard, passerby, and easily-frightened alleycat along the way, then how he exactly he gets the information he needs and who he decides to spy on, and everything.....

Solo adventuring, which is what you are describing whether you like it or not, can always be a problem to handle if you have a large group. What you describe is however, terribly exciting for the player. I know. I've been that player on many occassions. I've also been the player that stands by while the Paladin or the Ranger or Fighter or whatever shines in thier particular field, and I don't necessarily consider it boring to watch good RP and adventuring take place. I've also been that player that takes over an NPC or another PC's follower for the duration of an night's adventuring where my main PC isn't really useful.

This is the impression you give with what you're suggesting. That an overly complicated and extensive, time-consuming amount of effort go into handling one single task or instance of a task.

Again, two die rolls. How time consuming and complicated is that? It's no more complicated than a single attack.

And that the Rogue's player should have to suck at almost everything else just so he can be decent or successful at this one kind of task that comes up only occasionally.

If you are decent at 14 skills, I imagine you'll find lots of ways to be useful.

 

[Zulgyan]

I really don't see why people are suggesting not using Sleight of Hand as the main skill for this pick-pocketing. *mind boggles*

You could use a Sleight of Hand check once per week and treat it like a Profession check in terms of results (some amount of silver pieces or whatever, I forget what the Profession skill says exactly), opposed by some Spot check representing the average victim's chances of noticing (just roll one Spot check per week like this). If the Sleight of Hand check beats the Spot check, then the Rogue makes money as per the Profession skill perhaps; if the Rogue's check wins by 5 or more points, he or she might earn double the normal amount.

The Spot check should probably be based on the average victim's modifier; say, if the Rogue wants to try his luck among the wealthier parts of town, the Spot modifier may be +10 or +12 (assuming you're not a high-level group right now; if high-level, then they might be in an area frequented by other experienced people or very observant guards, in which case the Spot modifier may be +15 or +18 instead).

If the Spot check equals or exceeds the Sleight of Hand check, assume the Rogue is caught on one or two days but escapes, making no profit on those days but still getting some valuables on other days of that week. This would probably mean he or she gets half the normal amount from the Sleight of Hand check. If the Spot check beats it by 1-4 points, say the Rogue gets caught several times and narrowly escapes, making only a little money (one-fifth or so of the normal amount for his skill check). If the Spot check beats his or her Sleight of Hand check by 5 or more points, say he's caught at some point during the week and thrown in jail (or stocks/pillories, or an empty well/pit, or a dungeon, or whatever the locals use for keeping captured criminals out of trouble).

How your town's authorities deal with thieves is up to you; in some places they may chop the thief's hands off, or just a few fingers; in other places, they may confiscate all of the thief's money, gems, jewelry, and precious stones, then set him or her free after a few days in the jail/stocks/whatever; and in other places, thieves may be punished by being publically abused, humiliated, and left to suffer for a few days or weeks with little food and little water, until finally set free; all of the thief's possessions might be confiscated by the authorities to repay the victims or pay the salaries of the town guards, or just some of the thief's money may be confiscated to be returned to the victims and pay for the bit of food, drink, and time spent by guards in keeping the thief alive and imprisoned until his or her release.

Really thank you all guys. This seems to be the one I like most, I tinker with it a bit.

 

[Zulgyan]

Some ideas of Celebrim I like also.

 

[StGabe]

There may be some overlap, particularly with bluff (because of the synergy bonus), but where is the overlap with Appraise or with Spot? These skills don't even depend on the same ability score. They don't have a synergy unless you invent one.

First of all, I think you overrate these skills. It's not *that* hard to spot expensive clothing, etc. Even if you do, once, nick a knock-off watch, if you're grabbing a lot of watches withoug getting caught then you're still doing well.

Secondly D&D is, inevitably, an abstraction. And I was suggesting that in this case it is quite reasonable to suppose that the Sleight of Hand skill is an abstraction of a slew of activities in fact including some of what you have mentioned (my magician friend is certainly a master at "sleight of hand" and when I say that I mean exactly that he is good at a lot of different activities involved in performing sleight of hand). You *could* spend hours working out all the possible interactions or you could just have done with and use the skill as it is. I said above that if you want to throw in some other synergies that shouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure it's really worth doing that though.

Similarly you could spend a lot of time figuring out just how the bluff, sense motive, spot, intelligence, wisdom and charisma skills and attributes all equate into a person's ability to play poker. Or you could just make a gambling roll.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I really like Aust's suggestion.. and will probably use the same concept for the Gambling rules my player is looking for me to find

Modify the Perform Chart:
Sleight of Hand DC What you stole
10 Only the blind and old are easy enough targets for you, you can earn 1d12 cp/day.
15 In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d12 sp/day.
20 In a prosperous city, you can earn 2d12 sp/day. In time, you may attract the attention of the local gang for edging in on their turf.
25 In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d8 gp/day. In time, you may come to the attention of law enforcement or the local theives guild.
30 In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d8 gp/day. You may luck out and actually steal something besides a few coins and trinkets, (5% chance of stealing something of greater value between 50-500 GP as determined by the DM).

The DM rolls an opposed spot check representing the general security and average spotting skill of the cities denizens. A success indicates the pick pocketter is caught and must attempt to flee or smooth talk his way out lest he be imprisoned or have a hand cut off.

 

[Tonguez]

1. Set DCs for various parts of the city depending on wealth and level of security or use an opposed Spot check for more random results (eg in a busy market square)
2. Use Sleight of Hand to make a Craft* check
3. Roll * DC = Profit (in SP)

*I don't like the Professional rules so use a modified form of Craft rules instead. Austs list would work...

 

[Zulgyan]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Heres my take, it draws ideas from many of you plus adds some of my own.


LONG TERM PICK-POQUETING
Basics: Each week spent pickpocketing, the rogue rolls a Sleight of Hand Check vs. a sort of "comunity" Spot Check. If the Sleight of Hand check beats the Spot check, then the Rogue makes money as per the Profession skill (1/2 roll in gp); if the Rogue's check wins by 5-9, he or she earns 3/4 roll in gp. If 10+ he earn roll in gp.
If a rogue spends less time, say 5 o 2 days pickpoqueting, simply divide result by 7 and the multiply the result by the number of days spent on activity.


Sleight of Hand Modifiers:
Thorp -3
Hamlet -2
Village -1
Small Town +0
Large Town +3
Small City +6
Large City +9
Metropolis +12

Note: bigger cities favour hiding and escaping from authorities and also provide more wealth

Synergies
5 ranks in Move Silently give you +2.
5 ranks in gather info give you +2.


Spot Modifiers:
The DM must determine guard-density and zealousness in law-enforcing.

Near to 0 Guard +2
Lightly Guarded +4
Normal Guarded +8
Heavely Guarded +12 or more.
Special Varieble to DM appreciations

Special: A gather information or Knowledge Local check against a DC of 15 or 20 (your choise) lets the PC know the spot modifier will be facing. He learns about guard-shift time, less controlled areas, which are the best escape routes, guard routine, etc. This check represents prior info gathering to decide if the rougue takes the risk or not.



Failure: If the Spot check equals or exceeds the Sleight of Hand check, assume the Rogue is caught on one or two days but escapes, making no profit on those days but still getting some valuables on other days of that week. This would probably mean he or she gets half the normal amount from the Sleight of Hand check. If the Spot check beats it by 1-4 points, say the Rogue gets caught several times and narrowly escapes, making only a little money (one-fifth or so of the normal amount for his skill check). If the Spot check beats his or her Sleight of Hand check by 5 or more points, say he's caught at some point during the week and thrown in jail (or stocks/pillories, or an empty well/pit, or a dungeon, or whatever the locals use for keeping captured criminals out of trouble).

How your town's authorities deal with thieves is up to you; in some places they may chop the thief's hands off, or just a few fingers; in other places, they may confiscate all of the thief's money, gems, jewelry, and precious stones, then set him or her free after a few days in the jail/stocks/whatever; and in other places, thieves may be punished by being publically abused, humiliated, and left to suffer for a few days or weeks with little food and little water, until finally set free; all of the thief's possessions might be confiscated by the authorities to repay the victims or pay the salaries of the town guards, or just some of the thief's money may be confiscated to be returned to the victims and pay for the bit of food, drink, and time spent by guards in keeping the thief alive and imprisoned until his or her release.


Continued Activity: Each week of continued "activity" the Spot Modifier increases +2, becuase guards are more wary, people are more prudent and the PC starts to gain certain infamy.
A rogue that stops activity can reduce those bonuses at -2 per week of non-activity and low-profile.
Bonuses may not increase higher than community modifier, but can always increase to at least +2. This are just guidelines and criteria could vary from town to town given the cirances. Maybe the community hires mercenaries or adventurers to hunt the thief down thus increasing the spot bonus check.

While Spot Modifier beacause of "continued activity" is still positive, authorities are still looking for the thieve no matter he stoped stealing. This reflects the communities determination to bring him to justice. They continue looking for the thief until thier spot bonus because of continued activity goes back to zero, each week with a -2 reducing the spot check because of innactivity. This represents that new problems arise for authorities, or that they think that the thief is finnaly gone, etc., so they search with less dedication.
DM may have autorities abort search at anytime if he so wishes.

Against this spot checks, the PC rolls an opposed hide, bluff, or disguise (the PC chooses).

Escaping Imprisonment: If a character is in jail and wants to escape, you set a DC in acordance to what think is the security level of the jail. Once you got the DC you can have the PC roll a number of abstract checks at your choice. This can be escape artists checks, bluff, open locks, move silenty, BAB (to represent a short combat), disguise, etc. Keep it abstract and simple.
If PC fails any of your requirements, he is caught escaping and will be subject to the normal punishment, or worse.


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