Longer dying: more negative HP before death

[Bacris]

We play a system where you can go to - con score (10 min) instead of 10 and dead which has made a difference to the fighters a few times. (We also play disabled at 0 to - con bonus)

This is the same system we use and it works pretty well for us. Going to negative to your full range seems a bit excessive to me.

 

[Space Coyote]

I like the idea of a bigger negative hit points is a good idea. Personally, I think that -10-CON is sufficient (so a CON of 16 would allow you to get to -26 before croaking) and perhaps CON bonus adds +5% to stabilization chance. This would allow for more interesting scenarios involving players characters getting knocked unconscious instead of dying:

-The party needs to flee and do so while carrying unconscious party members.
-Some party members get captured and the others have to formulate a rescue.
-The whole party gets captured and must escape.
-The party is down, but not dead and decides to parley.

By only allowing negative HPs to -10 and stabilize being 10%, it is sometimes too easy to bump off a player character.

 

[MarauderX]

Thanks for all the input.

I think I'm going to go with CON+Level for the maximum negative HP. It follows the levels a bit better and allows the tough guys more rounds to bleed. It also lets CON as an ability become less valuable to the PCs that don't really need it as they gain levels. Keep in mind this works for the bad guys too, and they can survive long enough to be healed to take a few more swipes at the PCs.

In addition, healing won't automatically stabilize unless they are brought to positive HP or have the Die Hard feat. The point here is to make healing kits valuable again, and to stress the importance of the battlefield medic.

5% stabilization is still there.

Crazy enemies will just keep hacking and slashing at the living; smart enemies that know they are loosing a battle might choose to slay a fallen PC and run, hoping to kill the party off one by one.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I see your point in having a larger negative buffer, since that -10 means so little at high levels. But all that's meant to me is a high priority on keeping anyone from ever getting below half HP or so -- I suppose Jerrin should go back to summoning a lot in combats (lacking Mass Heal, he has to settle for setting up big damage sponges like Greater Earth Elementals).

Magical healing doesn't stabilize? I think you're going overboard with nerfing magic to make our 19th-level PCs have to do things the mundane way, after the huge section of spells you just cut out earlier. I mean, they're near-epic level, it IS going to be a very different game than low-level play. I think all the players had been quite enjoying the campaign as it had been going, so why these changes now?

It's one thing when it's part of the campaign from the get-go, but this is yet ANOTHER way that magic has suddenly become less useful. In practice, a DC 15 Heal check is not that hard to make, but it just doesn't make any sense that medieval-ish herbal medicine is actually superior to the power of the gods.

Why wouldn't clerics simply research a spell "Staunch bleeding," which does not cure damage but stabilizes a person in negative hp? What level would that be? In the current system, Cure Minor Wounds stabilizes AND gives 1 hp back.

You're also going to be giving us TONS of survivors to deal with -- people who attack us out of the blue, get knocked out and bleeding, and then we have to decide to finish them off, leave them, or heal them up and take them prisoner. And a large combat (like the Duergar/Litorians/PCs fight) is going to be hell to run, having to keep track of which body is at which negative HP and rolling stabilizations for them all every round.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think I'm going to go with CON+Level for the maximum negative HP.

This is my favourite version of the idea so far: I like that it makes both Constitution and level important.

 

[MarauderX]

Great many excellent points can still be read above.

I think I'll reverse my decision on the magical healing. The aim there was to prevent a 1st level adept from succeeding 100% of the time and give non-magical medics a reason to exist where a god's power cannot.

For the large battles with 20+ guys dropping like flies, DM discretion and pregenerated averages against the stabilization and damage already taken will have to be used for the sake of time, just like they are now. The only difference is that the length of time available to die is greater.

The point is to give both heroic PCs and NPCs a wider range in which to survive multiple high-damage attacks in a round. As the AC versus to-hit increase with the levels, the damage mitigation does not match the damage output. This is also mechanism allowing a 19th level character swarmed in a surprise round a greater chance to survive. As smart enemies will decide to chew up one PC at a time, the first target PC might not get the protection or healing before acting. The space of -1 to -10 will flash by with a single hit, with or without stoneskin or other DR.

All characters will already know this to an extent. When they know a cleric is on the field, they may decide to take a few more attacks on a downed BBEG instead of cleaving into one of his minions. Now when that cleric hits his BBEG boss with a cure critical, that BBEG doesn't pop back into action.

One of the last items is abusing the Die Hard feat, of which I would immediately be guilty. Die Hard would only work in the range of -1 up to -10 plus Con bonus.

A commander may also instruct his army on how to fight, such as spare no one or make them beg forgiveness. Whoever wins the battlefield may recover more heroic wounded troops and may also grant mercy to the losers. Or the winner could slay all of those dying enemies, ensuring they will never muster again. Such commands would surely affect the moral of the soldiers in large-scale battles.

 

[Celebrim]

IMy own house rules take it in the other direction.

Your dead if your hitpoints reach -10 + <size AC modifier>. (Yes, that means size small adventurers are dead at -9, they also take massive damage more easily but gain a few other advantages like reduced maximum falling damage). Your dying if you are between that and zero. If you are dying, you may make a DC 15 + 1/hit point below 0 Fort save to stay conscious. If you do, you are treated as disabled. You must make another save every time you take damage. You are disabled if you are zero hit points. You are staggered if you are between 0 hitpoints and 10% your maximum hitpoints (round fractions down).

Disabled and staggered come up fairly often.

When dying your chance of stablizing is CON%. Unconscious stablized characters have a CON% - <hit points below zero> chance each hour of waking up. (Note that this rule makes a long term 'coma' possible.) When either stable or disabled your chance of starting to heal is CON% per day.

Because of all the magical healing PC's can sling around, those last rules don't come up all that often but I like them because they better model my expectations about long term injury.

The following house feats are available.

Toughness (General)
You're tougher than normal.
Benefit: You add 3 + your base Fort save to your maximum hit points.
Note: You may not take this feat multiple times.

Hard to Kill (General)
You just won’t stay dead.
Prerequisite: Toughness
Benefit: You do not die until you are at -10 + character level + your size modifier hit points. Furthermore, you have twice the usual chance of stabilizing and recovering when below 0 hit points.
Normal: You die when you reach -10 hit points + your size modifier. Your chance of stabilizing or recovering is (your CON)%.
Special: You may take this feat at first level as a Trait, even if you do not meet the prerequisite.

Down but not Out (General)
Your will keeps you in the fight even when your strength has failed you.
Prerequisite: Iron Will, Toughness
Benefit: When dying, you have an additional +6 bonus on saves to remain conscious. If you are staggered or disabled and not yet at negative hitpoints, you may make a DC 15 Fort save to avoid the effects being staggered or disabled. You must make a new saving throw each time you take additional damage.

If you start giving away all this stuff, what am I going to do for flavorful feats?

 

[Nifft]

IIf you start giving away all this stuff, what am I going to do for flavorful feats?

Those are nice feats. I use a similar version of Toughness (though it's 1 + base Fort save, and thus +3 at 1st level).

However, my PCs don't have nearly enough feat slots to fit in all the feats they need, let alone feats they want. Though this makes the Fighter class a lot more attractive... hmm!

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sir Brennen]

For campaigns with higher negative thresholds before death, Diehard becomes a very powerful feat.

To take away some of the certainty (I can take X number of actions before I die), IMC I made it so any action you take in the I'm-disabled-but-should-be-dying range results in 1d3 points of damage, not a constant 1. The character still has the option of passing out before he crosses the threshold of Dead (but not if he took an action which would result in damage.)

Just throwing it out there.

 

[Nifft]

For campaigns with higher negative thresholds before death, Diehard becomes a very powerful feat.

Agreed. Any increase should be small (relative to total HP) for exactly this reason.

-- N