D&D 5E Longswords

[discosoc]

For my setting, longswords are the most "common" magic weapon, followed closely by maces. Characters using rapiers might do well at first, but it's highly unlikely that they'll actually find a magic rapier so the longsword issue kind of takes care of itself.

 

[Brandegoris]

If the rapier did a d6 then it would be a Shortsword.

The real problem is that Dex is leaps and bounds a better stat than Str. Str gives you athletics, strength saves, carrying capacity (and Str 8 = 120 lbs so it's essentially not relevant), and full plate (+1 AC). Dex gives you initiative, acrobatics, sleight of hand, stealth, dexterity saves and high armor class without full plate. If you have a choice between being Dex based and being Str based and it's going to cost you nothing in terms of damage output, then you choose Dex every time unless you're a Barbarian.

It wouldn't be a shortsword
It would be a rapier. It would just have the same game stats as a shortsword. That's tough sh*t. LOL
No sense in breaking down each and every type of blade.
Many are more or less the same. If you want to start making each and every sword different in some way then you have a 3.5 situation where you can have each one do a different critical multiplier etc, and weapon length discussions, etc.
A rapier probably should have the same game stats as a Shortsword. But having it be the same as a Longsword isn't bad either.
The real problem is that players want to min Max. Not have anything to do with flavor. I for instance am not a damn FOP so I wont be using a rapier. I will be using a longsword. And I will mercilessly make fun of tiny little rapier users

 

[Thurmas]

It wouldn't be a shortsword
It would be a rapier. It would just have the same game stats as a shortsword. That's tough sh*t. LOL
No sense in breaking down each and every type of blade.
Many are more or less the same. If you want to start making each and every sword different in some way then you have a 3.5 situation where you can have each one do a different critical multiplier etc, and weapon length discussions, etc.
A rapier probably should have the same game stats as a Shortsword. But having it be the same as a Longsword isn't bad either.
The real problem is that players want to min Max. Not have anything to do with flavor. I for instance am not a damn FOP so I wont be using a rapier. I will be using a longsword. And I will mercilessly make fun of tiny little rapier users

I agree with most of this, I posted something similar about 3 pages back, including a weapons table. Making more uniform damage tables for the weapons means more uses of weapons for flavor and RPing and not just because that's what you do the most damage with.

 

[discosoc]

If you're in the market of creating magic weapons, either for sale or for commission by a king for his army (or something similar), it makes sense that you'd be doing this for the weapons that are most likely to be usable by your customers. Longswords, shortswords, daggers, axes, and various mace/clubs, are all probably great targets for magic items. I doubt a local lord who commissioned you to arm his militia with basic enchanted weapons would be pleased when you show up with Rapier +1's that the locals have to be further trained to use properly.

For that reason, I have no problem limiting magic weapons and armor to the more common varieties. If something like magical rapier *is* found, there's going to be some history and importance to it.

And let's be honest, the only reason players are choosing rapiers in the first place is because it's the "best" choice for certain classes. It's on them if it doesn't stay the best.

 

[Arial Black]

If you're in the market of creating magic weapons, either for sale or for commission by a king for his army (or something similar), it makes sense that you'd be doing this for the weapons that are most likely to be usable by your customers. Longswords, shortswords, daggers, axes, and various mace/clubs, are all probably great targets for magic items. I doubt a local lord who commissioned you to arm his militia with basic enchanted weapons would be pleased when you show up with Rapier +1's that the locals have to be further trained to use properly.

For that reason, I have no problem limiting magic weapons and armor to the more common varieties. If something like magical rapier *is* found, there's going to be some history and importance to it.

And let's be honest, the only reason players are choosing rapiers in the first place is because it's the "best" choice for certain classes. It's on them if it doesn't stay the best.

1.) There is no 'further training' needed to use a rapier.

2.) It's a strange world where magic is so common that even militia expect to receive magical weapons. If magic is that ubiquitous in your world then so will rapier use if rapiers are 'the best choice for certain classes'. If magic is rare them magic weapons will be for heroes, not militia.

 

[discosoc]

1.) There is no 'further training' needed to use a rapier.

2.) It's a strange world where magic is so common that even militia expect to receive magical weapons. If magic is that ubiquitous in your world then so will rapier use if rapiers are 'the best choice for certain classes'. If magic is rare them magic weapons will be for heroes, not militia.

There's no further training in the sense that both are martial weapons, but realistically you can't just give a random person a rapier and expect them to be any good with it. It can't just be swung around like a longsword, nor can it randomly stab people like one.

As for 2, my point isn't that magic is so common that militia expects magical weapons. Only that magic weapons get crafted for *some* reason, and that of equipping a militia was simply one possible. Regardless, making magic weapons for the most common weapon type *does* seem like a smart thing for someone to do, so unless your world happens to have rapiers being the go-to weapon of choice, they simply wouldn't be very common. Neither would things like whips, for that matter.

Finally, you mention rapiers being the best choice, yet they are definitely *not* the best choice in terms of lore (at least any based on real history). Random people in the game world don't have a clue what dice values and stats are for weapons, so there has to be some kind of disconnect between "best in character" vs "best in metagame."

 

[Capn Charlie]

Magic weapons are found most commonly in the types that can and will be used by the group of people finding them. This isn't coincidence, but the enchantment of the weapon fating it to be found by the hand of one to wield it. Or weapon types that are really cool and under utilized, and could be really great if close minded warriors gave them a chance, so maybe if it's magical enough they will get out of their trope-o-rific comfort zone and try something new...

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

There's no further training in the sense that both are martial weapons, but realistically you can't just give a random person a rapier and expect them to be any good with it. It can't just be swung around like a longsword, nor can it randomly stab people like one.

You can't really expect to give a random person a longsword and expect them to win fights with it against someone who is trained in it either.

Finally, you mention rapiers being the best choice, yet they are definitely *not* the best choice in terms of lore (at least any based on real history). Random people in the game world don't have a clue what dice values and stats are for weapons, so there has to be some kind of disconnect between "best in character" vs "best in metagame."

Rapiers are a poor military weapon, which is why they were generally only used for civilian use. However, the factors that represent this (bad against armour, less effective disabling capability, lack of versatility, doesn't pair well with a shield etc) aren't represented in D&D.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Finally, you mention rapiers being the best choice, yet they are definitely *not* the best choice in terms of lore (at least any based on real history). Random people in the game world don't have a clue what dice values and stats are for weapons, so there has to be some kind of disconnect between "best in character" vs "best in metagame."

The rules of the game reflect the reality of the game world, though. If the inability of a rapier to pierce armor is a non-factor, then it's a non-factor.

Otherwise, we get into weird situations where the outcome changes depending on whether or not we apply the rules. If reality changes whenever we try to model it, then that's a pretty lousy model.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Personally I've always interpreted "proficient with martial weapons" to mean that you've trained with just some of them. Which ones? The ones you end up deciding to use, of course.

That said, I hope the Rapier dies. Not only does it not fit thematically, it is so clearly best-in-class for Dex users that it has become ubiquitous.

One solution is to max out 1H finesse weapons at 1d6 (and then offer some alternatives to the short sword).

The other solution...admittedly for 6e, not 5e...is to find a way for both Dex and Str to contribute to melee combat so that there's no such thing as "Finesse", and no easy stat dumping of one or the other. That is, it should be totally viable for a Dex fighter to use a Longsword, without simply replacing Str with Dex as the only combat stat. (I might bias the mechanics to slightly favor Str for Heavy weapons, and favor Dex for Light weapons, however.)