The Martial Study feat from Tome of Battle allows you to add diplomacy as a class skill to all your classes if you use it to get a White Raven maneuver. Later (10th level), you can then buy a Crown of the White Raven to add White Raven Tactics as a maneuver usable 1/encounter which will give one of your allies an extra action, which is very worthwhile.
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Looking for a Diplomatic solution
- Thread starter TheEvil
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airwalkrr
Adventurer
Quite honestly, why would you want to, as a sorcerer, waste a feat that could be spent on something amazing like Sudden Maximize in order to get Diplomacy as a class skill? And give up a caster level??? Horrible idea for almost any caster in D&D. Unless you're playing a game with virtually no combat where negotiations and roleplay is the heavy focus (in which case why are you using D&D?) then a sorcerer with cross-class ranks in Diplomacy is going to do fine.
Let's make some simple assumptions here. You're a sorcerer with a minimum 15 Charisma. As you go up in levels, you naturally put all your stat boosts into Charisma. By 20th-level you'll have a 20. Let's also assume by then you have a +6 Charisma item; not a big leap to make for 3e. You also take wish as one of your 9th-level spells and wish yourself to have +2 Charisma (or buy/loot a +2 tome of leadership and influence). So you're at 28, which is a +9 bonus by itself. Now let's assume you have a 10 Intelligence; sorcerers have better things to do than think. That's enough for 1/2 cross-class rank in Diplomacy, 1 rank in Concentration with 1 skill point to spare every level. Now at 1st and 2nd-level you keep Bluff maxed out as well so by 2nd-level you get a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy. After that, for the next 10 levels you put 1/2 cross class rank into Sense Motive. By level 12 you get another +2 synergy bonus. For eight more levels, you put 1/2 cross class rank into Knowledge (nobility & royalty), but because you want to reach that last +2 synergy bonus before you hit the magical level 20 you sacrifice 2 ranks of Concentration along the way. By 20th-level you have +6 from synergy. You're a sorcerer, so naturally along the way you'll pick up the greater heroism spell, which grants +4 to all skill checks. Handy. As the icing on the cake, you pick up a circlet of persuasion somewhere along the way, again, not hard to do before getting to 20th. So where does that put us?
+9 Charisma modifier
+11.5 Diplomacy ranks
+6 synergy
+4 greater heroism
+3 circlet of persuasion
Total +33 Diplomacy - all done using CORE RULES ALONE
That's enough to make a hostile creature indifferent as a full-round action taking a -10 penalty so long as you don't roll a 1. Do you honestly need 12 extra ranks of Diplomacy just to make the creature friendly? If you wanted to do that you would have cast charm monster, because you know, you're a sorcerer.
This is so totally not worth wasting a feat or losing a caster level over. Some things may be worth it, but this is not.
Let's make some simple assumptions here. You're a sorcerer with a minimum 15 Charisma. As you go up in levels, you naturally put all your stat boosts into Charisma. By 20th-level you'll have a 20. Let's also assume by then you have a +6 Charisma item; not a big leap to make for 3e. You also take wish as one of your 9th-level spells and wish yourself to have +2 Charisma (or buy/loot a +2 tome of leadership and influence). So you're at 28, which is a +9 bonus by itself. Now let's assume you have a 10 Intelligence; sorcerers have better things to do than think. That's enough for 1/2 cross-class rank in Diplomacy, 1 rank in Concentration with 1 skill point to spare every level. Now at 1st and 2nd-level you keep Bluff maxed out as well so by 2nd-level you get a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy. After that, for the next 10 levels you put 1/2 cross class rank into Sense Motive. By level 12 you get another +2 synergy bonus. For eight more levels, you put 1/2 cross class rank into Knowledge (nobility & royalty), but because you want to reach that last +2 synergy bonus before you hit the magical level 20 you sacrifice 2 ranks of Concentration along the way. By 20th-level you have +6 from synergy. You're a sorcerer, so naturally along the way you'll pick up the greater heroism spell, which grants +4 to all skill checks. Handy. As the icing on the cake, you pick up a circlet of persuasion somewhere along the way, again, not hard to do before getting to 20th. So where does that put us?
+9 Charisma modifier
+11.5 Diplomacy ranks
+6 synergy
+4 greater heroism
+3 circlet of persuasion
Total +33 Diplomacy - all done using CORE RULES ALONE
That's enough to make a hostile creature indifferent as a full-round action taking a -10 penalty so long as you don't roll a 1. Do you honestly need 12 extra ranks of Diplomacy just to make the creature friendly? If you wanted to do that you would have cast charm monster, because you know, you're a sorcerer.
This is so totally not worth wasting a feat or losing a caster level over. Some things may be worth it, but this is not.
Because it fits your character concept...y'know, role-play.
airwalkrr
Adventurer
Well I think I've demonstrated you can easily accomplish a stellar diplomacy without sacrificing your character's basic bread and butter abilities. And this is Dungeons & Dragons we're talking about, not Diplomats & Delegates. If Diplomacy is that important of a skill to have, I hardly think D&D is the right system for the campaign.
TheEvil
Explorer
In this case, Airwalkrr more or less has the right of it on a couple points:
Of additional note, we are playing using Pathfinder skills, so no synergy bonuses and all skills cost one point per rank, you get a +3 on top if it is a class skill. I was just hoping there was a way I could swap skills through a class option.
- It isn't worth a feat unless it is a social skills heavy game, which this one isn't.
- It is really hard to give up caster levels.
Of additional note, we are playing using Pathfinder skills, so no synergy bonuses and all skills cost one point per rank, you get a +3 on top if it is a class skill. I was just hoping there was a way I could swap skills through a class option.
And
The devil is always in the details. Personally, I have no problem with the tradeoff I described if I think it's a better model for what my concept is; I have no problem multiclassing spellcaters in 3.5Ed at all.
But that's me.
airwalkrr
Adventurer
If you are playing PF there is even less of a reason to get it as a class skill. +3 isn't that important in the grant scheme of things and you have a potential 20 ranks by level 20 instead of 11.5. So you're better off. Don't worry about the +3. It isn't worth giving up a caster level or spending a feat.
I agree that having bluff as your only class skill based on your prime attribute sucks. Its a little better than 3.0 where you had none.
As a DM I allow sorcerers to trade bluff for any other charisma based skill. This way they can tailor their character.
Why don't you try talking to your DM to see if he would be agreeable. I have never found it game breaking.
I also allow other class to sometimes trade out skills. I have a player who is playing a dex based fighter so I allowed him to trade out climb for tumble.
I find human paragon to be an awesome class combined with wizard. The extra d8 hit points and the +2 to any stat was worth the trade off of losing a level of spell casting. I am not sure I would do it as a sorcerer because of getting new spell levels slower than a wizard.
I just reached level 12 with this wizard/human paragon and I have not seen any real penalties and I am playing her in Age of Worms which is meat grinder style adventure path. Those extra hit points have saved her life several times.
As a DM I allow sorcerers to trade bluff for any other charisma based skill. This way they can tailor their character.
Why don't you try talking to your DM to see if he would be agreeable. I have never found it game breaking.
I also allow other class to sometimes trade out skills. I have a player who is playing a dex based fighter so I allowed him to trade out climb for tumble.
I find human paragon to be an awesome class combined with wizard. The extra d8 hit points and the +2 to any stat was worth the trade off of losing a level of spell casting. I am not sure I would do it as a sorcerer because of getting new spell levels slower than a wizard.
I just reached level 12 with this wizard/human paragon and I have not seen any real penalties and I am playing her in Age of Worms which is meat grinder style adventure path. Those extra hit points have saved her life several times.
RUMBLETiGER
Adventurer
As a DM, if one of my players approached me and said "For Character background reasons and Roleplay, I'd like to swap out one class skill for another", My response would be ".... okay."
A Sorcerer that knows Diplomacy because he grew up, I dunno, talking to people, works for me. Son of a diplomat maybe. I'd also allow Survival because he grew up in a cabin in the woods, or Profession (Sailor) for living off the coast.
Edit:
(Let me clarify avoiding extreme/broken skills ie. I'd like to swap Listen, Spot and Search for Iaijitsu Focus, Lucid Dreaming and Truenaming.)
A Sorcerer that knows Diplomacy because he grew up, I dunno, talking to people, works for me. Son of a diplomat maybe. I'd also allow Survival because he grew up in a cabin in the woods, or Profession (Sailor) for living off the coast.
Edit:
(Let me clarify avoiding extreme/broken skills ie. I'd like to swap Listen, Spot and Search for Iaijitsu Focus, Lucid Dreaming and Truenaming.)
Last edited:
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