D&D 4E Looking for thoughts on my kitbashed 4E

Xeviat

Hero
The trick would be to have role features mod powers. So a 'blaster' (AE-oriented control) might make spells bigger, while a striker would increase their damage and make them smaller.

For instance, Scorching Burst might be an Area 0 (1 square) in the spell list. The striker wizard adds extra damage to it but makes it single-target. The 'blaster' wizard makes it Burst 1. The controller wizard makes it push the target out of the square on a miss, and unable to take OAs EoNT on a hit. The leader wizard inflicts a vulnerability to cold on the target. The defender wizard leaves a ward of fire around the area that damages the target if he leaves or attacks through it, but with the target can break by attacking the ward (reducing the defender-wizards 'ward' pool of temp hps that he can refresh with an 'arcane surge')...

Traditional specialists could be sorted:

Evoker: blaster
Enchanter, Illusionist, Transmuter, Conjurer: controller
Necromancer, Diviner: leader
Abjurer: defender

I'm starting to think it might be simpler to just have role in powers (including class powers) and not be overly concerned. As long as controller builds have an ability as good as sneak attack, mark/react attack, and healing word, it should be fine.

Your spreads are really what I'm thinking for the wizard, except I'd do conjurer as a defender as summons add bodies to the field to take hits instead of your allies (but that might be more of a "summoner" instead of a conjurer).


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Tony Vargas

Legend
except I'd do conjurer as a defender as summons add bodies to the field to take hits instead of your allies (but that might be more of a "summoner" instead of a conjurer).
Yeah, that occurred to me, too. Depends on how you handle summons. 4e's handling was kinda on the fence between them being more like zones (controllerish) or more like an extension of the summoner (defenderish).

That and I'd given an Abjurer based on 'wards' a lot of thought back under 4e. ;)
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The trick would be to have role features mod powers. So a 'blaster' (AE-oriented control) might make spells bigger, while a striker would increase their damage and make them smaller.

For instance, Scorching Burst might be an Area 0 (1 square) in the spell list. The striker wizard adds extra damage to it but makes it single-target. The 'blaster' wizard makes it Burst 1. The controller wizard makes it push the target out of the square on a miss, and unable to take OAs EoNT on a hit. The leader wizard inflicts a vulnerability to cold on the target. The defender wizard leaves a ward of fire around the area that damages the target if he leaves or attacks through it, but with the target can break by attacking the ward (reducing the defender-wizards 'ward' pool of temp hps that he can refresh with an 'arcane surge')...

Traditional specialists could be sorted:

Evoker: blaster
Enchanter, Illusionist, Transmuter, Conjurer: controller
Necromancer, Diviner: leader
Abjurer: defender

Oh I very much like this thinking....
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
sword mage warding ... plus plus?
The idea of the Abjurer was to put wards on his allies or attack enemies and leave 'wards' around them that they'd have to break through or take damage from. Those wards were powered by a pool of temp hps that neatly made up the difference between controller and defender hps - 5 hps + 2/level - and which the Abjurer could shore up from his own hps. He'd also have 'arcane surges' to refresh those hps, making up the surge difference between controller and defender.
 


That right there is why a fully flexible design system like gurps or hero games can work... but what those games lack is encouragement for good fighting roles and a well defined set of archetypes (arguably classes taken too strictly lock these down too much).

Right, so IMHO a class defines an archetype and fills a role. Now, this does link archetypes to roles, but is that a bad thing? I don't think so, in general. Certainly if you the system isn't so rigid that you can't either effectively create a character of the same archetype using a similar class OR effectively add/change roles by selecting the right options then perhaps it would be too rigid. 4e has certainly allowed a decent amount of flexibility there though. My own game's classes are definitely less rigid, so I think I'm good there too. Sounds like the OP is working in that direction, though with few classes he will really have to think about even greater flexibility within each one (or he just desires a milieu with fairly similar characters). Honestly, I think 90% of players are actually perfectly happy with fairly rigid character implementations anyway.
 

In classical myth? Probably not. But Now it's a classic of D&D and almost every game that was influenced by D&D, along with fiction based on such things. This is a lot of stuff.
It was not a classic 2 or 3 centuries ago; it is now.
I don't really disagree with this, it is kinda self-evident. OTOH I'm not convinced it MUST be this way, particularly in our own 'hacks' of various D&Ds where we can do things more as we see fit. I mean, I dunno about you, but I GREATLY doubt anything I do in this space will ever be used by many people. So I figure I am not real beholden to D&D tradition, and aside from 'I want to emulate some character of an older game' it is not like there's a lot of figures in myth or whatever, so not really an archetype per-se that I need to service with such a class. Obviously this is a pretty personalized idea of what to put in a game, so its not like it is relevant to you or anyone else except as it may be interesting for us all to compare notes. Likewise of course your own opinions on this are interesting in elucidating ideas, etc. :)

However...
What "thematic" consequences the book wizard has? If you want to limit it on how must it can do, that's not hard.

I discussed that above. Because 'arcane knowledge' isn't really thematically a source of power, and anything might come of knowing obscure things or whatever, the thematic focus granted by the arcane power source is basically nil. The consequence being exactly what happened with the 4e wizard, it 'ate' many other classes, thematically expanding into their roles and thematic space. Thus you got wizards virtually replacing sorcerers, invokers, etc and expanding to fill many areas like necromancy, illusion, summoning, etc with one 'uber' class. Notice that some other classes actually 'fled' to other power sources in order to continue to exist in some form (the Elementalist being the prime example).

Other power sources in 4e were much more coherent and thematic. The elemental source, the shadow source, and the primal source, and the most focused being the psionic source (monk aside, which is IMHO psionic in name only). Even the divine source, which could potentially be its own thematic monstrosity, managed to be contained within a limited design space (albeit one might say that the arcane was the vehicle for that confinement).

In my game we have the Spirit, Elemental, Life, Shadow, and Martial power sources. These are fairly abstract, but you can actually say that your character is gaining power from SOMETHING. My warlock is a Spirit source class, he's drawing his power from a pact with some sort of higher/lower being. My sorcerer is Elemental, he's drawing power from the forces of raw creation. Druids are drawing from the power of life, illusionists from shadow, and monks from Martial -the power of your own person. It serves the original purpose, thematically confining each class and giving it a thematic core to draw from. Sorcerers don't cloud their targets minds, call on deals made with spirit beings, heal, or rely heavily on expertise gained through constant physical prowess; they unleash and harness elemental forces to create and destroy.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
As usual I'm going to remind you to run this stuff by your players before you jump down the rabbit hole & start redesigning things.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
In classical myth? Probably not. But Now it's a classic of D&D and almost every game that was influenced by D&D, along with fiction based on such things. This is a lot of stuff.
That's a lot in the context of our teeny hobby, but it's pretty much nothing outside it.
And, the classic D&D wizard isn't just 'magic from books,' it's Vancian.
It was not a classic 2 or 3 centuries ago; it is now.
OTOH, the idea of supernatural power from ancient, occult /arcane/ knowledge is classic, and was a big deal just a few centuries ago. The hermetic tradition, as revealed by Crowley and other, dosed with Theosophy, science, and pop culture, is where the modern concept of the pointy-hatted, bookish wizard comes from, be it those of Vance's sci-fi classic or Tolkien's high fantasy, or Rowling's post-modern inanity.

What "thematic" consequences the book wizard has? If you want to limit it on how must it can do, that's not hard.
Limitting the bookish wizard in a practical sense is easy: rituals, only. ;)
It was stretching to make it playable in combat that led EGG to the Vancian system..
 

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