"Looks like we're going to win this battle . . . in about 90 minutes from now."

[Forrester]

I have not played a lot of 4E, but the bit I've played so far suggests a problem -- from my point of view, at least.

The problem is that in some battles, after the first 2-3 rounds, it may become very clear to the DM and players that they are almost certainly going to win the battle, even if it should be a challenging encounter. BUT the natural course of battle would take another 90 minutes to complete.

For instance, I was in a battle where the characters were going up against a controller, a few artillery, and two or three brutes, and due to some early luck and good tactics (the team put down a Wall of Fire *here* and hit the baddies with an Ice Storm *there*), we managed to clearly gain the upper hand and take down one of the brutes and severely wound another. We also found that while the bad guys have wads and wads of hit points, the average attack most of the remaining baddies did was only doing 7-10 points of damage, and they only hit half the time.

At this point, the battle is essentially over. If the bad guys had managed an ambush, or surrounded the party, it would have been a close (and perhaps fatal for the party) battle, but at this point it's mostly a matter of cleanup. Yes, most of the foes are still alive, but they're controlled, and they aren't going to surprise the party by doing a wad of damage. But they've got a TON of hit points, so the battle could *easily* take another 7-10 rounds, and another hour and a half.

Contrast this with a 3E battle, which would typically take less time, and which had monsters that often, with a successful hit (or especially crit) could take out half or more of a tank's hit points. Even i they were behind, monsters could get lucky and do some real harm. By the time a battle might be called early, i.e., the DM says "Anyway, you clean up the remaining monsters and . . . ", you were probably only cutting out the last two or three rounds.

That's not how it works in 4E -- monsters that tear off a huge chunk of hit points simply *do not exist* -- that's not the way encounters are designed to work. Battle isn't BOOM BOOM BOOM, it's drip drip drip. In a lot of ways, I can see how this could be seen as a feature and not a bug, but . . . well, it just seems a little annoying that there could be battles against theoretically even foes that need to be called 7-8 rounds ahead of time because most of the suspense is gone.

I haven't played a ton of 4E, though -- and I don't want to generalize from a battle or two that's left a bad taste in my mouth. But has anyone else had this experience?

 

[Benimoto]

But has anyone else had this experience?

I've had it in 3rd edition, but not much in 4th yet. Creatures that have special effects when they get bloodied or die are specifically designed to prevent this sort of battle stasis.

But sure, if you have a battle that's all over but the cleanup, it's good to have a DM that knows when to either just call the battle over, or throw in some sort of change to shake things up.

 

[fba827]

I haven't had that experience in any of the 4e games i've played (played in about 5-6 sessions so far since the game came out a month ago).

It did happen occasionally in 3.X for me. And I would imagine it will happen at some point in 4e for me too.. but it hasn't been anything consistantly happening in either edition for me.


The conditions have been a huge swing factor.

 

[Boarstorm]

That's not how it works in 4E -- monsters that tear off a huge chunk of hit points simply *do not exist* -- that's not the way encounters are designed to work. Battle isn't BOOM BOOM BOOM, it's drip drip drip.

(snip)

I haven't played a ton of 4E, though.

Forgive me for saying so, but the latter comment is obvious (to me, at least) from the former.

While its true that monsters do significantly less damage than a similarly-leveled PC, they also have significantly more hit points. The end result is that it takes about the same number of swings (discounting healing, etc) for a character to take down a standard monster as it does for that monster to take down a PC.

I've seen 10th level defenders reduced to bloodied status in a single round from the attacks of a 10th level brute -- without even a critical hit.

I'm not going to compare it to 3.X combat, because that's neither here nor there. But I will say that you shouldn't expect your experiences so far to be typical of most encounters unless the DM is REALLY taking it easy on you.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Hmm. A couple of comments:

Sure, a sure-thing battle can be ended early if there'll be no additional consequences, but most battles are a part of a series with consequences beyond simple defeat or victory.

On the most basic level those final monsters could damage the PCs down to the point where they will have fewer healing surges useful for later.

But there are tactical consequences too, Monsters can manage to escape to add to the difficulty of later encounters, they can change the environment by setting things on fire or setting off traps, or they give warning and create a stringed encounter.

There's also a level at which ending the fight early should be a problem the Players and PCs solve. Intimidate has a 'get bloodied enemy to surrender' option and that's certainly not the only way I can picture a fight being negotiated to conclusion once the PCs have combat leverage.

And all of those level letting the PCs play out getting the enemies to surrender or be ground into the ground gives the adventure additional complications and level of success that can have profound resonance within the story.

So there are complications. I completely agree that you shouldn't let things drag, but there are factors that make a foregone conlusion less of a slog given waht else can be at stake.

 

[Forrester]

I've had it in 3rd edition, but not much in 4th yet. Creatures that have special effects when they get bloodied or die are specifically designed to prevent this sort of battle stasis.

But sure, if you have a battle that's all over but the cleanup, it's good to have a DM that knows when to either just call the battle over, or throw in some sort of change to shake things up.

Don't you think it's weird to have battles that are "all over but the cleanup" when 3/4 of the monsters are still alive and have the majority of their hit points, and it would take 7-10 rounds to actually do the cleanup?

And most monsters don't have those special effects.

Just opened to a random grim brute that you'd really hope would be a big-time threat, potentially -- the Earth Titan (Level 16 Elite Brute). He's got about 400 hp, attacks twice/round for an average of 17pts of damage per hit.

This guy against the average character of his level is going to hit maybe 40% of the time, for an average of about 15pts of damage a round. The average 16th level character has, what, about 120hps? It's a little sad that IF a battle against something like this is going well, that the Brute's realistic best-case scenario is the 2% chance that he hits once and crits once, for a total of 43 pts of damage -- not even enough to bloody a character.

Like I said, drip drip drip instead of BOOM BOOM BOOM. I'm not saying that it can't lead to very interesting combats, just that it seems that once the battle is going your way (or the monsters' way), it's VERY unlikely to turn around in the other direction.

Forgive me for saying so, but the latter comment is obvious (to me, at least) from the former.

While its true that monsters do significantly less damage than a similarly-leveled PC, they also have significantly more hit points. The end result is that it takes about the same number of swings (discounting healing, etc) for a character to take down a standard monster as it does for that monster to take down a PC.

I've seen 10th level defenders reduced to bloodied status in a single round from the attacks of a 10th level brute -- without even a critical hit.

I'm not going to compare it to 3.X combat, because that's neither here nor there. But I will say that you shouldn't expect your experiences so far to be typical of most encounters unless the DM is REALLY taking it easy on you.

Hey, the reason I'm posting is that I know my experience has been limited. But, no offense, duhhhhhh re the # of swings comment. The point is that it's almost always whole lot more swings than it used to be, which statistically *should* lead to the kind of thing I observed.

(This isn't a criticism of monsters being too easy for characters to handle -- after all, you can always throw higher-level monsters at them. Just about the way battles seem to be designed, with monsters with high hp and low damage outputs.)

BTW, I would love to hear about the encounter where a 10th level defender lost half his hit points to a 10th level brute without a critical hit, because I don't see how that's possible.

PS -- just checked, there are three level 10 brutes.

The Sahaugin Baron (Level 10 Elite Brute) does 2d4+6 with his trident, or d6+6 and ongoing 5 with his claw.

The Skeletal Tomb Guardian (Level 10) is surprisingly nasty, attacking up to 4 times for d8+4 damage each. However, the attacks are at +13 -- a level 10 Defender should have an AC of 26 or so; the Guardian may hit the 2% jackpot and hit him four times and do ~40pts of damage, barely bloodying him, but generally he'll do about 13pts of damage a round.

The Blade Spider (Level 10 Brute) similarly has +13 to attack, has two attacks, does d8+5 damage (ongoing 5), and the target is weakened. Certainly can be annoying, but if the battle seems well in hand, it's extremely doubtul the spider is going to get lucky enough to turn things around -- half the rounds he's not even going to hit the defender in question.

And these are the *brutes*, the big-time damage dealers.

Still, the fact that nobody else seems to be experiencing what I've seen so far is good.

 

[Incenjucar]

I think this is mostly a matter of encounter design and a lack of dynamic choices being made.

If the battle is essentially decided, the monsters are likely to figure this out themselves and either start using desperate tactics, retreat, or beg for mercy.

As for the baddies, that's incredibly low damage for that level.

What the heck monsters were you fighting, and what was the party level?

 

[Boarstorm]

That earth titan isn't fighting in a vacuum. He's probably got a buddy and a few servitors. Focusing fire is one of the key elements to laying the hurt on PCs.

Edit:

But, no offense, duhhhhhh

Be nice, or I'll take away your cookies.

BTW, I would love to hear about the encounter where a 10th level defender lost half his hit points to a 10th level brute without a critical hit, because I don't see how that's possible.

Level 10 fighter, 17 con: 86 hit points
Skeletal Tomb Guardian with Cascade of Steel (4 scimitar attacks, good damage rolls (32 damage average, 48 damage max). The guardian rolled well and did 44 points of damage. Theoretically, it could have inflicted (snowballs chance in hell, but what-the-heck) as much as 80 points of damage with four critical hits.)

 

[Incenjucar]

Seriously. Focus fire is a huge deal, as is flanking. Also the Earth Titan gets two slam attacks and an action point and reach and ranged and a stun and everything you get for being freaking Huge with Str 23.

I would pair it up with some smaller backstabbers, or something with ranged immobilization abilities.

Or maybe just a cliff to push PCs off of.

 

[Forrester]

Seriously. Focus fire is a huge deal, as is flanking. Also the Earth Titan gets two slam attacks and an action point and reach and ranged and a stun and everything you get for being freaking Huge with Str 23.

I would pair it up with some smaller backstabbers, or something with ranged immobilization abilities.

Or maybe just a cliff to push PCs off of.

I think I need to emphasize that I'm NOT saying there can't be interesting combats or dangerous level-appropriate combats with any and all of these monsters.

I'm saying that if it so happened that the combat got down to, say, just the Earth Titan and one of his buddies against a still-pretty-healthy 16th level party, it seems odd that the battle will take at least another 6-8 rounds (because damn that Titan has a lot of hit points) but no party member would really be in any danger whatsoever.

And it would seem odd for the DM to 'call' the encounter over early, but it would be annoying not to do so simply because the DM/party needs to find out how many healing surges get used.