Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[WayneLigon]

I'm hoping that a lot of the 'magic solves every problem' attitude evaporates in 4E. Dragons don't need spells to carve out a lair; they need claws which simply widens an already existing cave complex or dungeon/ruin they've taken over. They don't need an alarm spell, they sleep lightly and have extraordinary senses.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Dragons using wizard spells is such a D&D'ism, and goes back to 1E where that particular ability was added to make them better combat monsters. They were horribly weak for such an iconic monster, not coming close to stacking up against demons and devils. The fact that there were one or two spells they could take that explained away the "how do they do that without hands" issues was completely incidental. I for one am glad they're making them more like their counterparts in myth and fiction, and not a big wizard-in-a-lizard.

But if you must... since monsters have levels now instead of Hit Dice, perhaps the new rules for "dipping" into classes can be used for them as well. A dragon could be given the "Wizard Training" feat if the DM wants it to have actual spell-casting abilities appropriate for its level (without bumping up it's "CR" 4E equivalant. Bonus!)

 

[Stormtalon]

I wanted to reply to this post back when I first read it, but decided to wait for the separate thread that was requested for this particular discussion.

Dragon: "MINIONS! Adventurers have intruded my lair. Now go away and hide while I fight the adventurers alone."
Minions #1: "But dragon, I have arcane might with outmactches everything those adventurers have. You know that because I always have to cast scry spells for you as you are unable to do so. And Minion #2 who places all the wards around your lair so that you are not completely helpless against your enemies is a devout priest of the dark god. Together with our apprentices and Minion #3 who crafted all traps in your lair we could aid you in the combat.
Dragon: "NO! I am a solo monster. You aiding me in combat would be an unbalanced encounter. Therefor you must leave."
Minions #1: "Very well. (To other minions) Lets go and let this dragon be killed by those well prepared adventurers who all have protected themselves against his element. Its a good thing they don't know that we are the real boss encounter in this lair and not the dragon as together we are much stronger than him. That way we can surprise the adventurers. (To dragon). If you somehow manage to win the fight you are allowed to keep 30% of the loot. And if you die make sure that your corpse block the exit of the lair."
Dragon:" But we agreed on 50%!"
Minion #1: "Don't be silly. Without our magical powers you would be helpless. Or do you think that your little fire tricks would allow you to amass any form of wealth?You would spend your time with raiding caravans for meager profit and threaten small villages. And sooner or later a band of adventurers will enter your unprotected lair, if you even have a lair, and kill you in your sleep. You need us more than we need you."
Dragon:"Ok boss"

That is of course a bit overdramatized but it does capture the problem dragons have when they don't have magic. They are unable to do anything big except looking intimidating and terrorizing small villages. For all other things they need minions which provide the dragon with magical and other powers. And that means that in the end the minions are more dangerous than the dragon.

The point I wanted to make is that the entire premise of that conversation is such an absurdly contrived situation it makes my head hurt. It's completely ignoring the concept of a dragon as a being of innate magic and primal power. Quite honestly, I've never run a dragon where its spells made the difference in a fight with a party -- its innate abilities are more than enough to make even a small army of PCs sweat and wonder if they'll see the next sunrise.

I'd hazard that a far more likely conversation between a dragon and its minions would be as follows:

-----

Minion leader: "Great one, adventurers have--"
Dragon: "I know. Deal with them."
Minion leader: "B-but, they seem more powerful than the last ones, Great one."
Dragon: "So? You have set the traps as I ordered?"
Minion leader: "Yes. The traps are set."
Dragon: "And the basilisks have been released?"
Minion leader: "I.... yes. Unfortunately three handlers were caught unprepared by them and were--"
Dragon: "I fail to see the problem, then. Deal with the adventurers, then. Or have you grown more spineless since the last time?"
Minion leader: "As you wish, Great one."
Dragon: "If they do reach my chamber, it had better be that they had to step over the carcasses of all of you. Don't even think of fleeing and hiding. I will know. Oh and have those three unfortunate handlers brought to me. They'll make fine additions to my collection, don't you think?"
Minion leader: "One of them was my sister, Great one."
Dragon: "Ahh, a new centerpiece for my collection then. I know how proud you are of her, aren't you?"
Minion leader: "....."

-----

Minions are the expendable underlings and thralls that a dragon would use to keep uninteresting riff-raff from bothering it day and night; they're not beings it would even begin to consider as equals. They're there to do menial labor and handle tasks that the dragon considers beneath itself, and in a way, they're resources to be expended to determine whether or not a foe is worthy of the dragon's personal attention.

 

[jaer]

My biggest probelm with dragons having spell casting it is became obvious every dragon should take the same spells for the most part. What dragon isn't going to make sure to invest in protection spells (after all, at such a low caster level, damage spells are going to be crap). In order for dragons to have some flavor and not always be armed with the same spells, I ended up picking their spells known randomly by rolling. Which often leads to them not having much useful anyway.

Taking away their spells only removes an added layer of complexity that was Dragon Creation. I'm glad to see it gone and Out-of-the-box dragons now available.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I have to say I too am glad that the Dragons in 4e will be non-spellcasters "out of the box". Also I am glad most monsters will have alot of "out of the box" playable. Someone in the "Worlds and Monsters" thread said more-basic monsters slowed down game development, I personally disagree because by having more simply archetypes/templates it is easier to build upon then having to diminish or rework monsters for a plot.

Also, I think the "out of box" monsters, especially humanoids and Dragons will be easily adjustable into gaining more abilities/magic. Again it is easier to build-upon then tear down. Hell just look at the Red Dragon off the "Dungeon Master's Guide" if that doesn't scream scrying-Dragon I don't know what will.

I personally too, would very much like to see more basic dragons since it is fun to have dragons that simply enjoy torching villages, carrying away cows to the slaughter or making its den by a major-road to harass merchants.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't miss dragon spellcasting at all.

If you want them to be wizards.

Have them take levels of Wizard.

This was a good place to streamline the monster, and it will cause me to run dragons more often.

 

[Raduin711]

I think it is possible that we may be jumping to conclusions.

They have spell-like abilities rather than spells ripped from the wizard list.

the oldest black dragon only has about five possible standard actions.

neither of these statements says that they have lost capability in making trapped lairs.

Also, don't forget that different dragons have different roles. Whites are brutes, so probably don't have a lot of magic. Other types may have lots of magical tricks.

Also, don't forget that a lot of things have become out-of-combat ritual types of abilities. Spells that create traps would probably fall into that category. Alarm for example, probably does not have a standard action casting time.

 

[Jhaelen]

I wanted to reply to this post back when I first read it, but decided to wait for the separate thread that was requested for this particular discussion.

[snip]

I agree completely.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Q: How do dragons build lairs?

A: Using a combination of minions, thralls and slaves, and their own fearsome claws, iron-hard horns and terrible strength. Also, breath weapons and possibly long-term ritual magic which there is no point to quantify with game mechanics.

(I've always thought that even dragons without a listed burrow speed can, with time and some effort, dig through solid rock if they want. Hence, blocking a dragon in its lair by collapsing the entrance is a bad move; all you get is a very angry and very hungry dragon coming out a decade later.)

 

[jaer]

I think it is possible that we may be jumping to conclusions.

They have spell-like abilities rather than spells ripped from the wizard list.

the oldest black dragon only has about five possible standard actions.

neither of these statements says that they have lost capability in making trapped lairs.

Also, don't forget that different dragons have different roles. Whites are brutes, so probably don't have a lot of magic. Other types may have lots of magical tricks.

Also, don't forget that a lot of things have become out-of-combat ritual types of abilities. Spells that create traps would probably fall into that category. Alarm for example, probably does not have a standard action casting time.

True. I think dragons should have magical abilites at their command, they just shouldn't be casting them like a sorcerer. I like that each dragon will play out differently and some will have a variety of actions to bring to bear and others will rely on only one or two.

But moreover, I am glad to be done with flipping between three charts, 1 stat block, figuring out 8 feats, listing out 7 caster levels worth of spells, figuring out spell-like abilities, adding up the attack bonuses for all attacks (was that 3, 5, or 6 attacks for this dragon?), figuring out the damage (...so it's large, it's bite does how much?) the damage modifier (so it's full strength, 2xhalf-strength, 2xhalf-strength, and strength x1.5...), it's flying ability (it's a poor flier so...it takes...how many squares to turn around?) and then making a treasure hoard all for 1 creature.

Dragons really were rare and powerful in in my games only cause it wasn't worth trying to stat one out for a game unless it was the major end-all, be-all of the adventure for a few levels!