• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Low CRs and "Boring" Monsters: Ogre

hawkeyefan

Legend
Ok just some quick observations...

1. The improvised weapon rules in the PHB specifically reference characters.
2. The DMG has rules for improvising damage... pg. 249
3. Why are we assuming a cow thrown by an Ogre does the same damage a character would do with... broken glass, table leg, a frying pan, dead goblin or wagon wheel?

A cow carcass thrown by an ogre would probably hurt a lot. Without consulting the rules you cited (away from books), and in order to keep things as easy at the table, I'd likely just give the thrown carcass the same damage as the ogre's standard attack. I mean, I might rather be hit by a javelin then a cow...depending on where the javelin hit me.

To keep things interesting, I'd likely have a struck target make a save to avoid falling prone. Maybe their choice of Con or Dex with a DC equal to the damage dealt, minimum of 11.

I rather like the idea. I think it is a good example of how the DM can take what is otherwise a standard stat block and breathe a little life into it. I can understand the criticism that the ogre as presented is not the most exciting monster in the MM.

However, I don't think that it was intended to be, nor that it must remain so.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Luchador

First Post
I recently ran a game where I had an Ogre pick up a squishy player and impale him on a stalagmite.

You know the saying about how dumb criminals make for dumb cops?

Boring DMs make for boring monsters.
 

Disclaimer: This is just how I feel personally, and what my gaming groups have tended to feel. It is not a declaration of how all gamers feel, or the "right way" to play the game.

For me, metagaming things like using the most DPR ability, especially when in contradicts the nature of the creature you're playing, absolutely destroys the verisimilitude and enjoyment of the game. Why? Because that's not how semi-intelligent being work, so it feels incredibly fake to me, and less of an actual role-playing experience and more of just an exercise in a formula. Look at it like this. The most efficient shot to take in basketball is from 15-17 ft away. Does that mean every basketball player only takes shots from that distance? Of course not. What's going on in the game, the environmental impacts, personal attitudes---those all play a very real factor. So when I DM and play the ogre like I gave an example above, that makes the ogre feel more real. It doesn't go for the highest DPR, it goes for what it most likely would do in that situation if it were real. And I know my players appreciate that because it's those things that make the encounter more memorable for us, not any particular power the monster might have. I'm not saying that abilities in a stat block aren't important--of course they are. But the flavor text is just as important, and in most cases differentiates how I play an ogre vs a hill giant in the game. I can assure you, even if you take away the stat differences between an ogre and hill giant, it's going to be a different functional experience to the players when they encounter them. On ogre is a wanderer with a few humanoid followers who can be tricked or lured with shiny objects, while a hill giant is part of a stationary clan with permanent settlements and buildings that are a weak attempt at mirroring whatever culture happens to be in the area (which can result in hilarious and memorable encounters, like the hill giants trying to live in trees because the nearest neighbors are wood elves). So even though hill giants and ogres are intentionally designed to be very similar, there are still differences there that stand out to the players.

This BTW is also pure gold. Yoink!
 

That was a lot of posts to read but it was a load of fun to read them all.

Is the ogre weak for a CR 2 creature? Yes.
Is the ogre boring? Up to a certain point.
Does the ogre do the job it is supposed to do correctly? Yep it does. It is supposed to be a brute with no intellect. As such it works quite as intented.

What you have to remember is that the monsters in the MM are the average representatives of their ilks. This fact has been in all editions. Yet, nothing in the rules prevents you from modifying them and making them memorable and unique.

The ogre's chieftain should be stronger, better but not necessarily of a higher CR than its subordinates.

Consider this little encounter for a group of 4 level 4 characters (almost a deadly one)

The cave is dark but a small dwingdling fire is in the center enabling you see into it without too much trouble. Three big humanoids with heavy tusks set in their lower jaw are bent over a big rusty cooking pot from which the arm of some humanoid is showing. One of the brute is using the arm as a stirring spoon. One of them spots you and belch out a yell of warning. From the other side of the cave, an other brute shows itself. Unlike its brethrens, is sports some patchwork armor laced together with some animal skins, leather straps, bones and metal scrap from battered and broken armor parts. A big shield is in its left hand. The shield is made with wood with some metal plates hammered in with nails. That brute does not wield a big club like its mates, it wields a self made spiked war club.

3 standard ogres and one slightly modified to use a shield and armor. The chief's hp are raised by 20. Its patchwork armor raise its AC to 16 and to make things interesting, the shield and armor will fall apart after 5 solid hit (8hp worth of dmg or more) lowering its armor by one for each hit until its normal armor class is lowered to 11. The CR will still be 2. But I can assure you that your player will remember these ogres. And it will be a good laugh as they see its AC dwingling to nothingness.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
Disclaimer: This is just how I feel personally, and what my gaming groups have tended to feel. It is not a declaration of how all gamers feel, or the "right way" to play the game.

For me, metagaming things like using the most DPR ability, especially when in contradicts the nature of the creature you're playing, absolutely destroys the verisimilitude and enjoyment of the game. Why? Because that's not how semi-intelligent being work, so it feels incredibly fake to me, and less of an actual role-playing experience and more of just an exercise in a formula. Look at it like this. The most efficient shot to take in basketball is from 15-17 ft away. Does that mean every basketball player only takes shots from that distance? Of course not. What's going on in the game, the environmental impacts, personal attitudes---those all play a very real factor. So when I DM and play the ogre like I gave an example above, that makes the ogre feel more real. It doesn't go for the highest DPR, it goes for what it most likely would do in that situation if it were real. And I know my players appreciate that because it's those things that make the encounter more memorable for us, not any particular power the monster might have. I'm not saying that abilities in a stat block aren't important--of course they are. But the flavor text is just as important, and in most cases differentiates how I play an ogre vs a hill giant in the game. I can assure you, even if you take away the stat differences between an ogre and hill giant, it's going to be a different functional experience to the players when they encounter them. On ogre is a wanderer with a few humanoid followers who can be tricked or lured with shiny objects, while a hill giant is part of a stationary clan with permanent settlements and buildings that are a weak attempt at mirroring whatever culture happens to be in the area (which can result in hilarious and memorable encounters, like the hill giants trying to live in trees because the nearest neighbors are wood elves). So even though hill giants and ogres are intentionally designed to be very similar, there are still differences there that stand out to the players.

Take Matt Mercer for example. He's widely considered a great DM. Look at how he DMs. He doesn't run his monsters with the highest DPR or most effective attack. He gets into the role of the monster and acts like the monster would act. If I don't want to deal with taking the roles of monsters, and don't want to bother myself with the flavor or interaction or the environment, then I'll play a boardgame. WHICH IS NOT A BAD THING. Sometimes I really like that, and prefer it over a TTRPG. Sometimes I like the RPG elements over the boardgame. Neither is worse than the other, they are just different, and are played in different ways. For me, the flavor and lore is what makes encounters more than just predicted dice roll results and HP tracking. D&D is ultimately a game of pretend and imagination with infinite possibilities. That's what distinguishes itself from a game like Wrath of A. In my very personal opinion, it shortchanges the monsters when what makes them tick is ignored. If I ignored all the flavor, I'm sure my players would think they were boring too.


Great thoughts. I agree. Matt Mercer's decisions and technique actually make it less boring to watch people playing D&D. Without his and his players talents at developing character and using flavor the way they do I would never be able to watch them for hours upon hours.

Who would have ever thought that D&D could become a spectator sport? lol.
 

A cow carcass thrown by an ogre would probably hurt a lot.

Not as much as you might think. Google says a female cow weighs 1600 lb. on average (males weigh more). An Ogre's maximum lift capacity is 15 * 19 * 2 = 570 lb. So, a cow cascass doesn't hurt at all because it actually consists in the ogre straining futilely to budge the cow. At best it could rip off the cow's head and hurl it at you.

By 5E rules, you'd need to be Gargantuan and have Str 27 in order to even lift a cow, let alone hurl one.

5E's carrying capacity rules combined with MM stats for Ogres squash all the fun out of life. :-( The game needs exponential rules for carrying capacity, not linear ones.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Not as much as you might think. Google says a female cow weighs 1600 lb. on average (males weigh more). An Ogre's maximum lift capacity is 15 * 19 * 2 = 570 lb. So, a cow cascass doesn't hurt at all because it actually consists in the ogre straining futilely to budge the cow. At best it could rip off the cow's head and hurl it at you.

By 5E rules, you'd need to be Gargantuan and have Str 27 in order to even lift a cow, let alone hurl one.

5E's carrying capacity rules combined with MM stats for Ogres squash all the fun out of life. :-( The game needs exponential rules for carrying capacity, not linear ones.

In my defense, I think in one of my posts I said half eaten carcass, which has probably been cooking and torn apart already a bit. It's getting extremely pedantic at this point, but there's probably a good 150lbs or so that could be hurled. Either way, it's not really the point I was making :)
 

In my defense, I think in one of my posts I said half eaten carcass, which has probably been cooking and torn apart already a bit. It's getting extremely pedantic at this point, but there's probably a good 150lbs or so that could be hurled. Either way, it's not really the point I was making :)

Yeah, my nitpick is more a critique of 5E's non-epicness than of the cow-throwing scenario. :)
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Yeah, my nitpick is more a critique of 5E's non-epicness than of the cow-throwing scenario. :)

The funny thing is that I used to game without someone who would totally bring that up right off the bat.

"The roars and throws the half eaten cow carcass at you! [dice rolling] YOu get hit with it and take 8 points of bludgeoning damage and make a DC 10 Dex save to avoid being knocked to your knees."
"Wait a minute. A cow carcass weighs X, so half eaten equals 1/2x, which is still more than an ogre should be able to throw effectively, blah blah blah"
"IT WAS VEAL, OK! HAPPY NOW!"

:D
 

I would let the ogre throw the cow. Just because it's an OGRE! Damn with the rules. Narration is quite fun and takes precendence on rules (in my book at least).
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top