D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[FormerlyHemlock]

We have only had one PC death (my wizard before I took over as DM at the end of level 4), but we almost had a TPK just last week. After killing a minor BBEG (the PCs thought that he was the main BBEG), the PCs had acquired a ring that allowed the minor BBEG to communicate once per day (similar to Sending Stone) with a major BBEG (still not the main BBEG, but higher on the food chain).

I can't wait until they work their way up to Gharlane of Eddore.

 

[KarinsDad]

I can't wait until they work their way up to Gharlane of Eddore.

So far, I only created the chain 3 NPCs deep (well, technically, 4 since Szass Tam is an eventual given, but there will probably be a few between the current BBEG and him) and the first from HotDQ was killed off when I was still a player instead of the DM. But, once necessity rears its head, more concepts will result in bigger, badder BBEGs up the chain (BBEGs who are not even a thought yet in my world view). I tend to only detail the next guy up the chain and only fill in more details on latter villains once it seems that the current one is about to meet his (potentially temporary) demise.

A difficulty that I have always had with D&D is that the PCs level quickly, but the NPCs tend to level slower (or at least at my table). Hence, the 7th level NPC when the PCs were level 1 tends to be a nuisance at best when the PCs are level 10. Hence, I prefer to use the chain technique, allowing the PCs their victories and eventually replacing reoccurring villains with bigger, badder substitutes.

But unlike the Giants series, I prefer my BBEGs to be reoccurring so that the players develop emotional attachments to them before the PCs win, and I prefer to run multiple plots simultaneously so that there are more than one chain of BBEGs (I'm currently running Rot, PotA, and a homebrew plot).

 

[KarinsDad]

With low level wizards in mind, a player in my group is taking over as DM, so I get to yet again play a Wizard. Granted, my Wizard is starting at level 6 with 5 levels of Wizard and one level of Cleric, so he will be bypassing some of the low level growing pains of 5E wizards.

However, for those people here that were telling me how wrong I was about low level wizards, feel free to add suggestions here on how to make my wizard work better. Thanks.

 

[TBeholder]

Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

They always did, except maybe in 3.x. Just not this much.

And, I have not been especially impressed at all. My PC has been able on a few occasions to cast Fog Cloud to help the party and even once got a Web spell in that did not collapse right away.
But, that's been it in the time that it has taken to get to level 4.3. Yeah, I have been rolling bad for the most part and that's part of it. And no, I did not take the Sleep spell because that was not his thing. But does a low level Wizard have to take Sleep in order to be semi-productive?

It's not the only choice, but always was one of the best, yes.

The PC Rogue did 15 points of damage with a short bow attack in the same round as I did 14 points of damage with a Scorching Ray. All of the PCs managed as much or more damage in a single round many many times then the Wizard can manage a few times per day.

What are average values?

I also just recently noticed that my True Strike followed by Witch Bolt attack (which was my ace in the hole combo) doesn't even work at all. Both spells are concentration and True Strike doesn't work if it gets dropped, so even this minor combo doesn't work and is worthless. So, True Strike only works with instantaneous attack spells.
Concentration typically prevents more than one buff at a time,

That's the sort of thing you could look up or just ask DM before the game.

and the vast majority of spells get a save every single round.
On average, that means that if a player pulls out Hold Person or some similar spell, the spell will work for 0, 1, or 2 rounds based on bounded accuracy.
So on average, a spell with a save works for a single round. [...] It's been seriously nerfed. [...] It's unfortunate that WotC nerfed my favorite class to the point that it's not worth playing.

Yeah, 5e Hold and other such spells became almost useless. Was this even play-tested?
They probably tried to avoid 3.x style juggernaut, but don't really have a hang of it. It could be made less useless while still uncertain, but there's another reason why it's a bad idea: this adds yet another level multiplier (via proficiency bonus) to the effect of those spells, i.e. low-level wizards are nerfed more than high-level - which is the opposite of curbing the "linear warriors / square wizards" problem.

even spells like Web and such which used to do something in earlier versions do almost nothing in 5E. In earlier editions, the odds of getting out of it once the save was failed were fairly low, but now most creatures get out within a round or two.
And who the heck fights in a 20 by whatever room most of the time? Web used to be 8x the size it is now (2x in each direction) and there was a decent chance of there being multiple anchor points. A low ceiling is often the player's only hope to get it up and keep it up.

AD&D2 Web is 8 10x10x10' cubes, and a creature with Str 13+ (if they aren't NPC, see DM's fiat) can push through, but this takes time and you could set the whole thing on fire before it emerges (if that doesn't help, you're screwed no matter what).

I have no problem not shining every single encounter, but when I do cast my highest level damaging spell, I want it to do more damage than what other PCs are doing without casting spells.

Having good peak damage, but sucking at average damage output would make sense and be consistent with the classics.

If he could even Charm a kobold to go deliver a message for him, that would be more of a help than what he's been able to do so far, but he cannot even Charm a kobold. Charm used to be a "trusted friend and ally", now it's "a friendly acquaintance" and now the target knows he's been charmed when the spell ends (and of course, the duration is less). It's really pretty darn sad.

And to think, before 3.x 1-level spell Friends works pretty much like this, only on everything in 60' radius (though with tiny duration).

 

[Valetudo]

Isnt shatter a 2nd lvl spell? Grease is a good spell. Holdperson is good(Although it might be 3rd). Levitate, spiderclimb, invisibility, and knock are good for all levels. Misty step. And isnt chill touch considered a touch spell even though it has range. Npcs definitly have the option of healing themselves this edition. Dpr hasnt been the wizards specialty since 3rd edition came around. There are plenty of other ways for even a low level wizard to shine.

 

[Sacrosanct]

They always did, except maybe in 3.x. Just not this much.
It's not the only choice, but always was one of the best, yes.
What are average values?
That's the sort of thing you could look up or just ask DM before the game.
Yeah, 5e Hold and other such spells became almost useless. Was this even play-tested?
They probably tried to avoid 3.x style juggernaut, but don't really have a hang of it. It could be made less useless while still uncertain, but there's another reason why it's a bad idea: this adds yet another level multiplier (via proficiency bonus) to the effect of those spells, i.e. low-level wizards are nerfed more than high-level - which is the opposite of curbing the "linear warriors / square wizards" problem.
AD&D2 Web is 8 10x10x10' cubes, and a creature with Str 13+ (if they aren't NPC, see DM's fiat) can push through, but this takes time and you could set the whole thing on fire before it emerges (if that doesn't help, you're screwed no matter what).
Having good peak damage, but sucking at average damage output would make sense and be consistent with the classics.

And to think, before 3.x 1-level spell Friends works pretty much like this, only on everything in 60' radius (though with tiny duration).

This is the second, long dead lengthy flame war thread that you've necro'd today.

 

[cheezitmojo]

This is the second, long dead lengthy flame war thread that you've necro'd today.

Some people just want to see the world burn over and over.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[TwoSix]

Well, yeah, but 5e Wizards can barely make the world burn three times ... twice tops.

Every time I try and make the world burn, it keeps making its Dex save.

 

[hejtmane]

Of the damaging Cantrips Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, Fire Bolt because they have to hit mechanic and can crit for extra damage Firebolt has the best damage but most resisted.

The issue is they do not get to add + int to the damage unless they are level 10 Evocation and that works for Ray of Frost and Firebolt. The potent cantrip makes acid splash solid at 6th level the issue is one of the 6th or 10t level powers should have been the 2nd level and sculpt spells moved to 6th level not like it would have been earth breaking since Warlocks can all damage to EB at 2nd level

In fact the Wizard I think makes the most impact early is Divination

I find Abjuration to work best as a Multiclass with fighter to tank; in fact after testing several theories on tanks a Fighter Battle Master with 4 levels abj (we are at level 10 now) has been the better tank then the Totem barb for one reason he has goading attack and menacing to be able to get monsters off the squishy the ward makes up for hit points and they have the asi for taking war caster and then he relies on EE and shield in using his spell slots most the time and he has an at will cantrip for range while not great damage it is easier than switching to a bow.