D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[KarinsDad]

As far as I can tell low level wizard damage is moderate at best. Instead, focus on spells like sleep (even casting it in higher level slots), esp once some monsters have been whittled down a little, it can be a great finisher. Web. Hold Person. Magic missile for auto damage finisher. Flaming sphere. Then lots of utility, which is really the wizards place to shine - silent image, comprehend lang, unseen servant, cantrips like mage hand, presdigititation, minor image, alarm, as many rituals as you can get (esp find familiar - get one!), detect thoughts, alter self, arcane lock, suggestion, invisibility, phantom force, rope trick if you feel like helping the short rest classes shine more, spider climb. Wizards arent for damage in 5e, except maybe AoE once you are 5th, but even then, AoE is typically the worst kind of damage to do, you are better off focus firing one guy down than hurting 3 guys a little bit.

Unfortunately, low level wizards cannot have all of those spells prepped (or even learned) at the same time and many of them are situational.

Hold Person for example. On paper, it sounds great. In reality:

a) The target has to be humanoid. A very tiny percentage of foes in the MM are humanoid.
b) Casting it on a mook (not every weak foe has the word mook printed on his forehead) is pretty much a waste.
c) Casting it on a big bad sounds good in theory, but in practice, he'll probably save 50% of the time. So:

50%: 0 rounds
25%: 1 round
13%: 2 rounds
06%: 3 rounds
03%: 4 rounds

etc.

This works out to an average of the spell working for 0.89 rounds total. Not even an average of one round.

Even with a foe that has a 40% chance to make the save, it's an average of 1.15 rounds.

40%: 0 rounds
24%: 1 round
14%: 2 rounds
09%: 3 rounds
03%: 4 rounds

Now if the foe does not make his first save, and several of the other PCs can focus on this foe, and some other foe does not break the caster's concentration, then yes, advantage against one foe and critical damage for melee attacks. Sounds great.

Just rare in practice. Spell prep slots are at a premium. If the PCs are in town with a lot of humanoids, this spell might have some limited traction. If not, it's probably a waste of a prep.


No doubt at level 5 when a caster can cast Hold Person on 2 foes with a 3rd level slot (or even 3 or more foes at higher level with a higher level slot), then Hold Person states becoming more useful. But at the level it can first be acquired, it's often a waste of a cast and sometimes, a waste of a prep. It's so limited that I passed on it for other spells (Rope Trick, Scorching Ray, Suggestion, and Web so far) that I hoped would help my party more. There are a lot of good second level situational spells, so it's tough to decide which situational spell will help the most.

Hold Monster is similar when first acquired except that it's applicable to more foes.

Also abjurer is underpowered. I would recommend diviner (awesome 2d20 thing) or transmuter for their very handy philosophers stone at 6th (which amongst other things can give you con save prof, great for concentration casters), or if you reeeeally want to go blaster, evoker (coz standing in the middle of your own fireball is COOL).

Hope this helps

Well, I am discussing low level casters. I am sure that high level casters start gaining traction.

 

[KarinsDad]

We recently fought a priest that was healing themselves and their allies. It came up in that battle. I figure any time we run into an evil priest, it will be pretty major. I think it will be highly useful at high level if we run into priests with heal. A 70 hit point boost is pretty big. I don't know what heals and what doesn't. I like having something ready for dealing with it.

Me too. Reason I took the cantrip. The one time our group ran into a Cleric, the party was split up and my PC wasn't there.

So, zero for one so far.

 

[KarinsDad]

I made level 5 last session. I picked up fireball and fly.

My top two choices at the moment too. Funny that.

All I know is that I'm still having fun with the wizard.

I wish I was.

To tell you the truth, I am enjoying the game. I just wish that when the crap hits the fan, my wizard could actually do something worthwhile to alter the situation. It's the reason I always enjoyed playing wizards. In 5E, it just seems so infrequent and subpar.

I think the wizard is going to be quite potent at high level. Some of their high level abilities are amazing. A martial class can't touch shapechange or foresight.

I would be surprised if that were not the case, but like the example of Hold Person or Silence, I wonder how well actual practice will hold up compared to expectations.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Unfortunately, low level wizards cannot have all of those spells prepped (or even learned) at the same time and many of them are situational.

Hold Person for example. On paper, it sounds great. In reality:

a) The target has to be humanoid. A very tiny percentage of foes in the MM are humanoid.
b) Casting it on a mook (not every weak foe has the word mook printed on his forehead) is pretty much a waste.
c) Casting it on a big bad sounds good in theory, but in practice, he'll probably save 50% of the time. So:

50%: 0 rounds
25%: 1 round
13%: 2 rounds
06%: 3 rounds
03%: 4 rounds

etc.

This works out to an average of the spell working for 0.89 rounds total. Not even an average of one round.

Even with a foe that has a 40% chance to make the save, it's an average of 1.15 rounds.

40%: 0 rounds
24%: 1 round
14%: 2 rounds
09%: 3 rounds
03%: 4 rounds

Now if the foe does not make his first save, and several of the other PCs can focus on this foe, and some other foe does not break the caster's concentration, then yes, advantage against one foe and critical damage for melee attacks. Sounds great.

Just rare in practice. Spell prep slots are at a premium. If the PCs are in town with a lot of humanoids, this spell might have some limited traction. If not, it's probably a waste of a prep.


No doubt at level 5 when a caster can cast Hold Person on 2 foes with a 3rd level slot (or even 3 or more foes at higher level with a higher level slot), then Hold Person states becoming more useful. But at the level it can first be acquired, it's often a waste of a cast and sometimes, a waste of a prep. It's so limited that I passed on it for other spells (Rope Trick, Scorching Ray, Suggestion, and Web so far) that I hoped would help my party more. There are a lot of good second level situational spells, so it's tough to decide which situational spell will help the most.

Hold Monster is similar when first acquired except that it's applicable to more foes.



Well, I am discussing low level casters. I am sure that high level casters start gaining traction.

Ah I thought we were including 5-6 low level, if it's just up to 4th... yeah what can you say really, wizards get their "proper" AoE from 5th, so until then, it's sleep and utility mostly.

Ultimately if you arent having fun with a wizard, roll up another dude! But I suspect if you wait till 5th all will be well.

 

[Celtavian]

Karinsdad,

My feeling is that landing a spell for even a round or two will be enough to turn a combat. Once DCs get higher, it should be easier to land a spell. At low level with the DC being 13 or 14, spells don't last long and only work roughly two out of three encounters if requiring a save. At higher level when DCs reach the 16 to 19 range, they should last longer on creatures that don't have that specific save or any save bonus. The nice thing about 5E is even your first level spells will have a 16 to 19 DC, since it is no longer based on spell level. So that 2nd level Tasha's Hideous Laughter might defeat a Cloud Giant or similar high level enemy.

We'll have more information once we see how the wizard does throughout advancement. It seems early to judge the class. The fighter for example gets some of their best abilities very, very early. Action Surge is probably the best feature they get. They get that at second level. Wizards don't get their best features until much later levels. Some of them are very nice. That ward your Abjuration Specialist gets should shine at later levels when you're getting hit by opponent spells and breath weapons. Your level 14 abjuration ability is very nice. Your level 10 ability is pretty good too. Quite a few enemies have casting ability at higher level. I was tempted to play an abjuration specialist. I went Evoker because a forest gnome evoker is hilarious. Nothing like having the tiny guy be the most frightening member of your group.

 

[I'm A Banana]

My feeling is that landing a spell for even a round or two will be enough to turn a combat.

Truth. Enemies only live for 2-4 rounds anyway. Trip up a baddie for one action, and there's a solid chance you've just removed half of everything that guy would do this combat.

 

[DEFCON 1]

You have a wizard in your group. What does he do to "save the day" (or even be somewhat effective)?

Well, he's a Conjurer, so his 2nd level school ability 'Minor Conjuration' has been what has help "save the day" as it were (if you'd even call it that, as in our game everyone tends to help out equally when you look at the totality of combat, non-combat, interaction and exploration activities). Whenever the group's been out and about and realized they needed something in particular... the Conjurer opens his robe and pulls out said object. A spade? He's got it. A set of manacles? He's got it. A spyglass? He's got it. It's basically like he's got a Robe of Useful Items that never runs out of stuff. But like I originally mentioned... that's a lot for my particular table and my particular style of DMing (where the party finds those abilities to be at a premium.)

In combat, he's fine. He does use Sleep (which is admittedly one of the best low-level AoE spells), but he also gets a lot of "roleplaying in combat" use out of his owl familiar and unseen servant. Minor Illusion and Chromatic Orb go up a lot too. But truth be told... this has seemed about the same as the amount of stuff he would have done in combat if we were playing any of the other "Vancian"ish spell combat editions... and in fact probably magically even more, specifically due to throwing at-will attack cantrips. Is he a combat powerhouse? Nope. But it's not like as a 2nd or 3rd level wizard he would have been "saving the day" playing AD&D or 3E either.

 

[Emka]

Low level wizards are awesome. There's two evokers in my group, lvl2 each.
During their adventures they have:
- burned down a tavern with Burning Hands, killing 4 burly fighters
- wrapped a metal chain around a bugbear and used Shocking Grasp on the chain from a safe distance
- froze a set of stairs with Ice Blast while 4 kobols were coming down it - four enemies prone in one action? take it away rogue & fighter
- used Mage Hand to dump a pot of boiling water on a kobold leader.
- used Shocking Grasp on said leader for extra damage (being wet and standing in a puddle)
- used Mage Hand to insert burning embers under the armor of a well protected knight
- took out a pack of wolves with Sleep

This was over the course of four play sessions. Note how only Sleep and Burning Hands were levelled spells. The rest are cantrips!

As with old D&D, wizards rule the universe if played correctly.

 

[DEFCON 1]

As with old D&D, wizards rule the universe if played correctly.

Let's not make "right" or "wrong" judgements here on particular playstyles... because admittedly much of what you made mention could be disallowed based upon particular table style and DM style. Ray of Frost (ne "Ice Blast") doesn't "freeze" anything (to knock someone prone or otherwise) per the actual mechanics of the spell (mechanically, all it does is slow someone down)... so that's your DM adding a flavor and fluff mechanic that the spell itself doesn't actually have. Which is *great* (in my opinion) that your DM adds that kind of stuff... but not every table does. So it's not a "correct" or "incorrect" way of playing that got you these results at your table.

Similarly, Shocking Grasp is not a distance spell, it's a melee spell. And also, mechanically-speaking it requires metal armor to be worn, not that any monster just touching metal is more susceptible. So again... while it's great that your DM is making these judgement calls to allow these to be used in the particular ways that you mention... the fact that other tables might not get to do the same thing doesn't make your way "correct".

If KarinsDad's DM doesn't allow this expansion of cantrips that your table allows... then his gripes about being underpowered might have more weight than you're allowing for.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ah I thought we were including 5-6 low level, if it's just up to 4th... yeah what can you say really, wizards get their "proper" AoE from 5th, so until then, it's sleep and utility mostly.

Ultimately if you arent having fun with a wizard, roll up another dude! But I suspect if you wait till 5th all will be well.

I'm hoping so. I do have an advantage over other players of wizards in that we have a ranger 2 / wizard 2 evoker in the party as well. So with the exception of witch bolt (which I misread) and scorching ray, I haven't taken too much in the damaging spell department and have been focusing more on utility. He's a blaster who takes 75% of his spells as offensive spells. So, we keep adventuring, gaining treasure, and then going to town and purchasing components to transfer spells between us. It's been really costly and might become prohibitively so in the future, but it does give both wizards a lot more selection of prep spells every day.

Edit: One other note on this. I do think that 5th level is a tipping point. Our DM handed out a Headband of Intellect and the party voted to give it to my PC, but I refused and convinced them to give it to the ranger / wizard. Why? Because he gained nothing solid at level 4 like the rest of the PCs. Giving him the headband boosted his 16 Int to 19, and my PC boosted his 16 Int to 18. I could have taken the headband and a feat (or boosted Dex or Con or Wis), but my suggestion includes the idea that the ranger / wizard boost his Int to 18 at level 6 and give the headband to the arcane trickster. The rogue has Int of about 10, so 19 would be a huge jump for him. He could then focus on spells like Charm Person and Hold Person and such at level 6 with Int 19 and +3 for proficiency, DC 15. His DC at the moment is 10. That would be huge for the rogue. Granted, the ranger / wizard wouldn't gain anything at level 6 (Int 18 instead of Int 19), but the party would.

When one looks at this, the ranger / wizard gets DC 14 one level earlier and DC 15 one level earlier, and the rogue gets DC 15 that he would have never gotten. My PC got DC 14 this level and DC 15 next level as well.

The whole idea of going from DC 13 at level 3 to DC 15 at level 5 cannot be overstated. I do think that this next "tier" with more spells and higher chances to hit and lesser chances to save will feel different. Course, the other PCs gain a lot at this point as well.