D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[hayek]

Wizards could often have up multiple spells at the same time, not just protection.... A wizard can no longer be both invisible and flying (unless someone else casts one of the spells).

See, to me, this is just an excellent argument for how ridiculously over-powered wizards were in prior editions. Someone who can, whenever they want on a limitless daily basis, turn invisible and fly anywhere (and eventually do the same for their companions) - what does this do to the world and so many typical adventure concepts?

"You reach the creaky drawbridge of the ancient castle's ruins. You hear the howls of numerous monsters roaming the crumbled remnants, unsure of what threats stand between you and the sacred dagger kept in the top room of the highest tower... Oh, I see the wizard has simply flown up to the top room while invisible, grabbed the dagger and flown back down to the party. Alright, adventure over! Thanks for coming!"

The updates to spells in 5e have been desperately needed for a long time. (Personally, I think there's areas that are still sorely overpowered - Teleporting out of danger in the blink of an eye is just ridiculous to me, no matter what level you are... why is the casting time for Teleport not something like 1 minute, or even '3 rounds'?... I digress).

Wizards can still be massively effective. Like many other posters, I just don't see where KD is coming from. Wizards shouldn't be balanced on the basis of damage alone as their schtick is awesome game-changing spells, which they still have in spades. If you want examples, here's a couple:

- The party needs to infiltrate a system of caves filled with orcs. Rather than hack their way through dozens of orcs, the wizard casts Disguise Self on himself, dresses up the rest of the party as his 'prisoners' in a wooden cage on the back of his wagon, and rolls right through all the orcs' guards.

- An evil villain has the princess hostage, he demands the party hand over the 'Holy Scepter of Bobbybob' in return for the prisoner. The party could never give up this holy relic. The wizard steps forward and opens a small bag, showing that the scepter is inside, which is really just a Minor Illusion he created (this is just a Cantrip!). The villain releases the hostage and grabs the bag eagerly. By the time he realizes he's been duped, the princess is safe.

- The party is captured by the guards of a tyrannical king for spreading rebellion. A sympathizer inside the castle comes to save the party, disguised as a guard, he frees the party from prison and piles them into the back of a wagon to hide under some bushels of wheat, but as the party is getting in a guard walks in on them. The Wizard casts Charm Person and asks the guard to be so kind as to just look the other way and go about his patrol, and the guard grudgingly obliges.

- The party is trying to infiltrate a cave complex filled with gnolls to retrieve an ancient relic rumored to be found there. They encounter a patrol of gnolls on the way that they dispatch. On the group's leader they find a note, but are unable to read the language. The Wizard casts Comprehend Languages and reads the note, which says, "the great gathering of the tribes is in 3 days, have your group ready to leave in 2 days". Thanks to the Wizard, the party realizes they can just wait 2 days and not have to cut their way through 50 gnolls to find the ancient relic.

I could go on, but these examples are just making me eager to play a Wizard now...

 

[I'm A Banana]

First off, the Cleric could only do that a few times a day and if he does, that means very few healing spells.

Yep. But man, who needs healing spells when you can have two AC buffs or temp HP buffs or damage reduction buffs going at once! Healing...so inefficient.

Second this same thing happened in 3E, 3.5, and Pathfinder.

Right. Lots of folks had problems with cleric buffing and save-or die effects there, too. Enough so that 4e (arguably) over-corrected!

I do not think Pathfinder would have been as popular as it was if Clerics could take over the role of Fighters merely by having two protection spells up in a given encounter.

I think that if you want to use popularity as evidence of something's quality, you're going to have to explain things like appendixes and tonsils and pop music and the market crash of 2008 and patent medicines and homeopathy and 1950's Racism every other instance in history where a lot of people were utterly wrong about what they thought was the best possible thing. PF isn't popular because it's flawless, man. That's not how popularity works.

Again, I'd encourage you to give it a spin and post about your results. Playing a game with a few easier encounters where there's no non-spellcasters is hardly the end of the world, if that even happens.

 

[Celebrim]

If you want examples, here's a couple:

- The party needs to infiltrate a system of caves filled with orcs. Rather than hack their way through dozens of orcs, the wizard casts Disguise Self on himself, dresses up the rest of the party as his 'prisoners' in a wooden cage on the back of his wagon, and rolls right through all the orcs' guards.

- An evil villain has the princess hostage, he demands the party hand over the 'Holy Scepter of Bobbybob' in return for the prisoner. The party could never give up this holy relic. The wizard steps forward and opens a small bag, showing that the scepter is inside, which is really just a Minor Illusion he created (this is just a Cantrip!). The villain releases the hostage and grabs the bag eagerly. By the time he realizes he's been duped, the princess is safe.

- The party is captured by the guards of a tyrannical king for spreading rebellion. A sympathizer inside the castle comes to save the party, disguised as a guard, he frees the party from prison and piles them into the back of a wagon to hide under some bushels of wheat, but as the party is getting in a guard walks in on them. The Wizard casts Charm Person and asks the guard to be so kind as to just look the other way and go about his patrol, and the guard grudgingly obliges.

- The party is trying to infiltrate a cave complex filled with gnolls to retrieve an ancient relic rumored to be found there. They encounter a patrol of gnolls on the way that they dispatch. On the group's leader they find a note, but are unable to read the language. The Wizard casts Comprehend Languages and reads the note, which says, "the great gathering of the tribes is in 3 days, have your group ready to leave in 2 days". Thanks to the Wizard, the party realizes they can just wait 2 days and not have to cut their way through 50 gnolls to find the ancient relic.

I could go on, but these examples are just making me eager to play a Wizard now...

I think these sorts of counter-examples would be a lot more effective if they didn't usually depend on an overly generous DM and stupid NPCs. While infiltrating a lair using a disguise might be something I'd allow, I can't imagine pulling that off unchallenged. At the least, I'd expect 1 successful bluff (or other social skill) check and a wizard fluent in orcish to pull that trick - and that's if you successfully disguise yourself as a particular orc known to the guards and not a generic strange orc (for which you better roll well on disguise). Something also will need to be done to hide the parties gear from casual inspection. Etc.

Fooling a evil mastermind that steals princesses with something like a minor illusion is ridiculous. Seriously? I'm sorry, but if that worked and the players were more than 10, I'd never play in that DMs game again. A common drug dealer is more skeptical than that and knows better how to test the quality of his product. How the heck do you rise to the leadership of an evil organization where backstabbing, treachery, and deceit are common and you can get scammed by the simplest lamest tricks in the book? Seriously? Our villains aren't even as smart and competent as Cobra Commander? I'm done with that game. Yes, scamming or deceiving a villain ought to be something you can pull off, but not so bloody casually and unskillfully. 50/50, the evil mastermind intended to scam and betray you anyway as soon as he got the foozle.

Likewise, what you suggest for Charm Person can reasonably only be pulled for with something like Suggestion. Charm Person makes the guard see _you_ as a friend. That friendship does not extend to how he sees your comrades, whose presence will be baffling and distressful to him - why would you, his close friend, hang out with such scum. Nor does it cause him to take potentially suicidal courses of action on your behalf or cause him to betray other friends. It might work, depending on the guard, but charm person is not Suggestion - a spell two levels higher for a reason.

Only the Comprehend Languages suggestion doesn't seem overly generous to me, and it well, as a DM well acquainted with the mental processes of players, the note 95% of the time will not do what you think it does. Most parties in fact will I think interpret that as a time limit - "In 2 days they are going to move the ancient relic to "the great gathering of tribes". If we don't go in now, then it will be 5000 gnolls guarding the foozle rather than 50." Conversely, if that is what the DM intended them to know, if they interpret the information as you suggest, they'll have exactly the wrong idea. Hopefully your DM has learned by experience not to give such a vague clue.

In short, all these examples of how powerful wizards are assume a lot of cooperation by the DM. I don't think yours necessarily break the rules outright - as some counterexamples have - but they are hardly impressive counterexamples. And that's not even getting into the fact that they don't address the OP's concerns.

 

[trentonjoe]

Right none of those tricks would work against an 8 INT Orc, a 1st level thief or a commoner.

Sorry buddy, your creativity doesn't work here!

And it does address the concern. KD's doesn't want to suck, it seems he defines suck as combat worthyness. Pulling off one of those spells and saving the day would be something we talked about for years at my non-10 yearold table.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It depends.

It could be zero damage prevented. If the foes just walk out of the effect and attack normally.

Or, if the foes walk out the other side and attack with ranged weapons. Both PCs and NPCs are at disadvantage.


Not every PC is a spell caster. If an NPC spell caster were caught in a Fog Cloud and walked to the opposite side, he could then Fireball the PCs with no penalty and most of the PCs attacks against him would have disadvantage.


Fog Cloud is a very poor example because it rarely gives that much of an advantage to PCs and can actually be used by NPCs in many cases to their advantage.

You've completely missed the point. The point is, if the spell causes an opponent or opponents to do something other than what they would normally do (the most effective attack against the PCs), it can have a big effect that can't be measured in HP.


I gotta tell you. Between this thread and the other one you started a couple weeks ago, it really seems to me that you'd be much more happy playing 3x/PF. I don't mean that as a bad thing at all. But it seems like you really don't like A LOT of things about 5e based on these two threads you created. And every time someone addresses a claim or concern of yours that tries to show you how or why it doesn't have to be like that, you always come up with another excuse as to why it sucks.

At some point, stop playing a game that you think sucks.

 

[Wrathamon]

At some point, stop playing a game that you think sucks.

I would change that to stop complaining\arguing about it.

 

[Celtavian]

This is the same thing we saw when the other switch happened. Some people will learn to accept lower powered magic, others will not. If they can't, they find the game edition they like.

I like the new magic system. I don't feel underpowered compared to other characters. The more important factor is I don't feel overpowered compared to other characters. I still feel unique. I still feel I do extraordinary things other characters can't do. It's going to take more time to figure out if this the case at all levels. Right now the low level wizard is fine by me. I'm having fun. I do like the fact they no longer dominate the battlefield. I played a lot of wizards and I knew how to take over and did it quite often, especially so at higher level. The pervious paradigm was martials do the most single target damage, casters do the best at everything else. In 5E everything is scaled down and relatively balanced while still feeling unique, fun, and powerful compared to the challenges including the wizard.

 

[seebs]

IIRC you can have up to 3 effects active in Pathfinder and IMO it was still too many.

Again IMO, I think setting the number of effects at 1 was a great move.

Neither 3.5 nor pathfinder limited number of effects per se. You couldn't cast spells while maintaining concentration (which is slightly stricter than 5e), but very few spells had a concentration duration. At high levels we might have 6-8 significant buffs up simultaneously across the party, giving differently-typed bonuses to different stats with overlapping effects. I think we were typically running around +10-or-so to hit and more than that to damage on all attacks.

And yeah, I do think restricting this improves the game, but it may in some ways nerf wizards.

 

[Mort]

Neither 3.5 nor pathfinder limited number of effects per se. You couldn't cast spells while maintaining concentration (which is slightly stricter than 5e), but very few spells had a concentration duration. At high levels we might have 6-8 significant buffs up simultaneously across the party, giving differently-typed bonuses to different stats with overlapping effects. I think we were typically running around +10-or-so to hit and more than that to damage on all attacks.

Hmm, pretty sure Pathfinder limits the number of buffs on a person to 3 - of course that's a lot more than the wizard only maintaining one spell but it's a still a step up from the unlimited buffing of 3.5.

And yeah, I do think restricting this improves the game, but it may in some ways nerf wizards.

It clearly nerfs the wizard but IMO it's a very necessary nerf. You know the situation is bad when the first action in nearly every combat is casting dispel magic (followed by way too much time figuring spells lost, and recalculating all bonuses)!

 

[Celtavian]

I don't know.

Maybe it is because 4E introduced At Will Wizard powers that could do nearly the same damage as At Will powers from other classes, but then went back to wimpy cantrips.

Maybe it's because the Shield spell could be stretched over multiple encounters in 1E to 3E, but in 5E lasts a round.

Maybe it's because multiple protection spells could be cast in a single encounter to protect fellow PCs, but with concentration, now it is one spell.

Maybe it's because NPCs now get a saving throw every single round.

Are you actually being objective? I cannot be the only one who sees how weak saving every round is, or one protection spell at a time is.

Wizards could often have up multiple spells at the same time, not just protection. Now, a flying wizard has virtually zero protection up (except Mage Armor and possibly Mirror Image). A wizard can no longer be both invisible and flying (unless someone else casts one of the spells). There are entire areas of tactics and strategies that are not only nerfed, they just no longer exist. Protection of others is basically just thrown out the window.

I actually like many of the higher level nerfs, but the lower level nerfs are just unnecessary.

Fog Cloud in 3E has a 20% miss chance at melee range and 50% miss chance at longer range. Now, the chance to hit at any range is the same as if the spell wasn't there (advantage cancels out disadvantage) unless nobody is actually in the Fog Cloud (in which case it's disadvantage). One cannot be protected within the spell radius anymore (shy of the DM ruling that the PC can move around and the NPCs cannot hear him and do not know where he is, that's DM dependent).

Of course I think the new saving throw paradigm is weaker than previous editions. It's empirically provable that it is weaker. It was intended to be weaker. Invisible and Flying was always too powerful. I used that combination because it was a no brainer for the majority of encounters. Made you untouchable, especially at higher level once you obtained Mind Blank and could destroy opponent magic items.

Are you understanding this was the intended design of the new game? The book is released. You will not change anything with this discussion. So this discussion is pointless. You either accept the new design philosophy for magic or you return to another game system. No more multiple buffs if they are concentration based. No more summoning multiple creatures. You must choose very carefully which spell you use. I completely understand either way you decide to go. I did not accept 4E and moved to Pathfinder after complaining as you are doing here. My complaints didn't change anything, but heck, I did it anyway. So I get the venting.

The changes to 5E are no different than a martial having to accept he won't have 200 point crits any longer. He won't get to kill balors in one or two rounds. He doesn't get to cleave down ten creatures in an action or use Come and Get Me to slaughter anything in melee. The paladin doesn't get to smite evil and destroy creatures with massive archery crits. It's all toned down, including the wizard. It doesn't mean the wizard is weak, especially compared to the capabilities of other characters. It's not like martials aren't similarly toned down to wizards. They do far less damage and don't have anywhere near the powerful capabilities they had in 3E.

You're arguing comparisons to older game systems rather than comparisons within the game. Why do your cantrips do less damage than a fighter's standard attacks? Because eventually your attacks will do far more damage than the other classes. Your capabilities will be far greater. If you look over the higher level spells, you'll get some serious power back later on. Not on par with 3E, but definitely powerful for 5E. They kept the low level wizard slower power progression because it is in line with D&D standards. So you are weaker relatively to your martial counterparts in damage dealing at low level, but at higher level you become much, much stronger in overall capabiltities. From what I can tell the wizard is designed to do a smaller amount of damage continuously with cantrips with occasional big boosts of power through his spells. I'm used to that type of play, so it doesn't bother me.


I loved playing the uber wizard like yourself. I did it for years and did it well. That fits a certain type of fantasy paradigm in the Raistlin and Elric mold. I'm also ok playing toned down Gandalf or Conan level wizards. It's a different type of fantasy paradigm where you don't get to dominate, but at the same time you are still formidable.

It call comes down to what you feel like doing. As another long time wizard player that loved controlling the battlefield, I'm having fun doing so on a much smaller, less permanent scale. Sure my spells only last a round or two at best due to the save every round. I don't hit as hard as the martials with my at wills, though as a wizard I never did unless it was AoE. I can't buff myself defensively to be nearly untouchable, then again I never read or saw Gandalf or Conan Wizard's buffed and untouchable flying in the air out of reach of the enemy. I don't see why I should have to be able to do that to be effective and be part of a story.

Bottom line is I'm having fun with the wizard. I'm finding ways to be effective. I'm looking forward to my higher level capabilities. I don't feel weak relative to the other classes. I feel unique, effective, and am having a ton of fun learning the new system. One thing I do like is I don't feel like I'm overshadowing the martials in this game. I still remember my most recent arcanist wandering around ending most fights with color spray, while relaxing in the back letting the martials letting the martials take the damage. In my last high level campaign the blaster Cross-Blooded sorcerer was nuking for 250 points a round in 30 foot radius annihilating large groups while flying and invisible. The martial characters were bored and wanted to be back at level 10 or 12 where they felt useful. I won't have to worry about that in this game hopefully. Though Shapechange does look really nasty. Polymorph spells appear to have gotten back a lot of their power in this edition. I'll wait for full judgment until I test out the wizard at all levels.