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D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

Styracosaurus

Explorer
I think the problem sits more on monster design rather than PC build.

Magic resistance is too generic/generalized and too common.

Legendary Resistance is a very potent ability, undervalued in design and broadly applied.

It would be better to make monsters resistant on certain saving throws (wisdom or charm) for example.

Legendary Resistance is the same as immunity unless you have multiple spell casters.
Even then, legendary resistance is just a tax on your spell slots.
 

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chriton227

Explorer
If you launch a fireball at a legendary creature, he saves without using legendary resistance and you do the same damage with a 3rd or higher level slot with a cantrip. Why would you cast that? .

Because the fireball can't miss and hits multiple targets? Comparing the damage of a cantrip to fireball while assuming the cantrip always hits and the save is made against the fireball isn't a fair comparison. The cantrip is full damage if it hits, and no damage if it misses. The fireball always does at least half damage even if the save is made (barring evasion and damage resistance). So fireball is much more reliable damage, and can hit many more targets.

You can't cast Bigby's or Flaming Sphere, your best bang for the buck damage spells because concentration.

Why not? So you have to make a choice about what is most important at that point in the fight. If you are worried about your concentration getting broken, then work on improving your defenses, take cover, or invest in feats and/or stat increase to improve you chance of making the concentration check. Do you want to be a damage-dealer, or do you want to be a buffer/debuffer? How is it unfair that you don't get to be both at the same time? Wizards get the flexibility to make that choice, something that not all classes get.

In the game I'm currently running, the party is level 3 and the wizard is a gnome illusionist. The gnome has single-handedly contributed more to their success than any other character through smart use of his familiar (cast as a ritual) and illusions. Sure other PCs dish out more damage in a fight, but the wizard has prevented several fights single-handedly and in many other cases gotten the party a surprise round that ends the fight before it even begins. The illusionist's witchbolt also swung a fight that was looking like a TPK into an easy win by repeatedly breaking another caster's concentration.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Why not? So you have to make a choice about what is most important at that point in the fight. If you are worried about your concentration getting broken, then work on improving your defenses, take cover, or invest in feats and/or stat increase to improve you chance of making the concentration check. Do you want to be a damage-dealer, or do you want to be a buffer/debuffer? How is it unfair that you don't get to be both at the same time? Wizards get the flexibility to make that choice, something that not all classes get.

It's not a matter of fairness. It's a matter that one of the mechanical methods that the designers added into the game to prevent abuse is, in the opinion of some players, too strict.

One cannot fly and go invisible. One cannot web and blur. Having such strict restrictions seems overkill. For players who enjoy playing wizards and have done so for many decades, not being able to cast fly and invisible (as one example) leaches a lot of the fun out of the class.

The fun of the class is in the ability to be versatile. Changing that to X or Y or Z, but not two at the same time, does not seem versatile.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I like versatility [MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION], but not being able to fly and invis is a selling point for the new system.

Granted I know its been around a long while, we had an unearthed arcana invisible flying barbarian (stealth attack copter) for a while, but it got old.



P.S. We personally never liked improved invis, seemed to OP.
 

Celtavian was earlier in the thread stating similar things, until he played a wizard for many levels. He was on your side of the fence making similar arguments to what you were.

So, my response to your #4 is, go play a wizard for three months in a game where the other PCs are optimized and then come back and tell me how great wizards are. No doubt, there will still be people who play 5E wizards who will still like them after playing them for extended periods of time. But I suspect that as time goes on and more and more people get actual time experience with wizards, the percentage of players who like being a fifth wheel most of the time will diminish.

I've played wizards historically since my first pre-1E PC. Color me unimpressed.

I've gone the opposite way as Celtavian. I spotted the weaknesses in 5E wizards right off the bat; spent some time looking at non-concentration options; am now okay with them. They're definitely not for everybody, but if you think Conjure Elemental and Rary's Telepathic Bond are cool, wizard might be the class for you. If pure DPS is what floats your boat, make a fighter instead.

I still prefer the AD&D magic system because it has more scope for awesome (sneak into the neogi base and start laying Fire Traps!), but 5E has other nice things about it, and wizards are viable characters in it, especially at high level when you can boost your DPS by making a Simulacrum of the fighter. ;-)

If you want to change the system, fine, go ahead, but there are people who can have fun with the 5E wizard as written. Oddly enough, many of them seem to enjoy 5E fighters as well--unless that is my imagination?
 
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chriton227

Explorer
It's not a matter of fairness. It's a matter that one of the mechanical methods that the designers added into the game to prevent abuse is, in the opinion of some players, too strict.

One cannot fly and go invisible. One cannot web and blur. Having such strict restrictions seems overkill. For players who enjoy playing wizards and have done so for many decades, not being able to cast fly and invisible (as one example) leaches a lot of the fun out of the class.

The fun of the class is in the ability to be versatile. Changing that to X or Y or Z, but not two at the same time, does not seem versatile.


But having the option of doing X or Y or Z is the very definition of versatility. Versatility is about the variety of potential options at any given time, not the momentary peak power those options give you. The ability to stack those options together is how the "quadratic wizard" thing comes about, as each additional option increases both the number of combinations and the maximum power in an exponential manner. For example, if you can do X or Y or Z, then you have 3 options; adding option W expands your choices to 4 options, but doesn't necessarily increase the power of the existing options X, Y, or Z. Change that to X and/or Y and/or Z and suddenly you have 7 options (X, Y, Z, XY, XZ, YZ, XYZ) with a maximum power level of all three combined. Add option W and you have 15 options (W, X, Y, Z, WX, WY, WZ, XY, XZ, YZ, WXY, WXZ, WYZ, XYZ, WXYZ) with a maximum power of all 4 combined. Add in option V and suddenly it is 5 options vs 31 with an even greater peak power difference.

It sounds like what you want is power and versatility, but the two exist in a balance. It's like with tools, the more different things a tool can do, the less effective I expect it to be at each. My Swiss Army knife can be a can opener, a saw, a knife, a screwdriver, or a corkscrew, but it is not as good of a saw as a dedicated saw, or as good of a can opener as a dedicated can opener. It also can't function effectively as a saw, a can opener, and a corkscrew all at the same time. It's value is in the versatility in one package, I don't have to carry around a bunch of tools if I think I might stumble across a need for one of them, but if I know I'm going to have a need for a particular tool then I'm better off with the dedicated tool unless I'm constrained in how many tools I can bring. Wizards are the same way. They can be damage when you need damage. They can be buffs/debuffs when you need buffs/debuffs. They can be crowd control when you need crowd control. But they are not going to be as good of a damage dealer as a class dedicated to dealing damage, and they are not going to be as good of buffer as a class dedicated to buffing. If wizards could be the best at anything whenever they want, then the rest of the party might as well just stay home and let the wizard do everything on their own, and there would be no reason for anyone to play any class except wizard.

I remember in my 3.0 days, players complaining about spellcaster cheese I would throw at them and how unfair it was, when actually I was just using the party's spellcaster's tactics against them. If it is cheesy and overpowered for the enemy, it is cheesy and overpowered for the PCs too. Flying improved-invisibility hasted blinking casters with mage armor, shield, cat's grace, bear's endurance, and fox's cunning spamming summons, dispel magic, rays of enfeeblement, glitter dust, and fireballs. Dragons running mage armor, shield, blink, haste, and cat's grace to jack their AC up even higher. By the time the party reached the low teens, the enemy casters routinely had 10+ spell effects on them at the start of combat just like the PCs did, and it was a big part of the reason why we rarely went past level 15. Caster NPCs were far more powerful than non-caster NPCs of the same level. A L10 wizard should present approximately the same difficulty challenge to a party as a L10 fighter or a L10 rogue, not noticeably more or less.
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
I like versatility [MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION], but not being able to fly and invis is a selling point for the new system.

No, not really. There are many RPGs around where PCs can do more than one non-instantaneous spell at a time.

Granted I know its been around a long while, we had an unearthed arcana invisible flying barbarian (stealth attack copter) for a while, but it got old.

I guess it always depended on the table. Having players go nuts with things is something that rarely happened at our games.

A little cheese here and there, but not the entire factory. Having the game mechanics strictly control this instead of the players playing responsibly is a not a strength of the new system.

P.S. We personally never liked improved invis, seemed to OP.

Yeah, but that was a problem with improved invisibility, not a problem with fly combined with invisibility. I wasn't a fan of improved invisibility, even when I played a wizard.
 

Flying improved-invisibility hasted blinking casters with mage armor, shield, cat's grace, bear's endurance, and fox's cunning spamming summons, dispel magic, rays of enfeeblement, glitter dust, and fireballs. Dragons running mage armor, shield, blink, haste, and cat's grace to jack their AC up even higher.

Sounds like an excellent time to perform a tactical retreat. Come back later when buffs run out.
 

PaulO.

First Post
How does the Wizard know that the fighter or paladin is on the verge of eliminating the threat every time? Maybe your DM "bloodies" as per the sidebar on page 197, but maybe he doesn't.
My DMs (currently in 2 games) describe the condition after most hits. It is great for RP, and we get a rough idea of how hurt they are. Or we can always ask how they look.


If that is what your wizard is into, great. It's the same discussion as level one. If the level one wizard does not take Sleep, he tends to be heavily disadvantaged as compared to a wizard that does.

If you want to be powerful, you have to take the powerful spells. This is like complaining that the fighter with the short sword does less damage than the fighter with the longsword. If you want to do more damage, you have to wield the longsword. If you want to be a powerful wizard, you have to use the most powerful spells.


If playing the wizard the way you like to play wizards is not possible, pick something else.

By all means, play any way you want. If you want to play a fighter who only does unarmed attacks without feats to support it, do it. Just check your complaints about balance and power when you see a fighter next to you switching between longbow and longsword and being more effective overall. You can play any type of wizard you want. We're trying to point out which spells are the most powerful, so you can be a useful and effective wizard. If you want to play a character archtype that doesn't use these spells, by all means do it. Just doesn't make sense to complain about how much it sucks if you're purposefully ignoring the most powerful options available.

From what I've seen, combat healing is a lot harder to come by in 5E than 4E, which makes preventative measures that much more valuable. That's why spells like Sleep, Blindness, and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere are so incredibly powerful from low levels on up, and a welcome contribution to any fight.
 
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