"low" magic campaign using D&D rules

[GlassJaw]

Like 3d6 in order for stats? (Or, really, any die-rolling method)

Sort of.

If a player wants to be a wizard but rolls an 8 for Int, they can't really be a wizard now can they?

If a player rolls 6 11's but can arrage them any way they want, technically they can still be a wizard.

I would say neither is much fun but for different reasons. The first case is what I was responding to.

 

[Ry]

I'm not sure a lot of players would say that being true to the source material of a setting is a high priority for a ruleset - certainly not one that trumps "I get the character I want to play."

 

[Emirikol]

Just because it accurately depicts the source material doesn't make it good design. If that was the setting, I would argue that it's not a good setting for a game. Period.
It's just not fun.

Normally I disagree with GlassJaw on a lot of issues, but he's converted me on this one:

* Players need to be able to make their own choices in regards to race/class/background or the game will not be as fun as it could be for players.

Now, if you want to say: 5 Players - one of you get's to play a wizard, you players fight it out, that's one thing..but the random element of getting a crap character for 15 levels..well, I think that might not be as fun as it should

jh

 

[Keldryn]

I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to get derailed.

It's only derailed if it turns into a flame war.

ehren37 does make a very valid point that should be considered when designing and running a low-magic game.

If NPCs are utterly unequipped to handle magic, it does make the PC spellcasters even more powerful. With NPCs who are completely baffled by and afraid of magic, PC spellcasters will have no trouble ripping off every shopkeeper and noble with the use of low-level spells such as invisibility, charm person, and even basic illusions, never mind the possibilities of higher-level spells. Do you want the PCs to be able to cast minor illusion spells on bags of rocks to make them look like gems and then make thousands of gold by selling them to different jewelers in every town? City guards will get utterly trounced even by lower level PCs. PC Wizards could quite easily abuse their 1st and 2nd level spells to pretty much guarantee that the party never really has to pay for anything.

Imagine the effect that a single 1st-level Cleric or Druid (or even an Adept) can have on the village or town that he or she lives in with the three 0-level castings of purify food and drink that he or she can provide (so at least 24 gallons of water per day). It's not a powerful combat spell, but we're talking zero-level magic here that would have profound effects on the development of a community. If there are good-aligned NPCs of any of these classes -- even if they are extremely rare -- it's hard to imagine why they would not perform such services for their community. Some players don't notice or care, but others will have a hard time sustaining the suspension of disbelief when everyone in the world is completely ignorant of even the most insignificant magic that they've been able to use in abundance since 1st level.

It certainly isn't impossible to run a low-magic game with D&D rules, even 3.5 -- but a DM needs to be aware of and be prepared for the effects it will have on the game. And making PC spellcasters more powerful while making PC warrior-types less effective is one of those effects. The magic-ignorant populace also becomes even easier pickings for the very rare but still very powerful foes that the DM still needs to create in order to keep the PCs challenged as they accumulate experience.

It's a fairly radical departure from the D&D rules, but the d20 Game of Thrones book presents a pretty good approach to a low-magic game. But in doing so it virtually eliminates PC casters as well. Another thing that it does is keep hit point totals from inflating wildly. A Man-At-Arms, for example, starts with 10 HP at first level, and then gains +3 HP/level after that. I might be off on those figures, but it's fairly close.

Alternatives to magical healing go a long way towards making low-magic games work. Conversion to nonlethal damage, faster healing, variations on wound/vitality points, and other such variants help reduce the reliance on healing spells that never goes away in standard D&D rules.

I've been using magic weapons that can be improved as a PC gains levels as a substitute for the revolving door of +1, +2, +x cycle of magic weapons for a long time. Even in a non low-magic game, it helps the flavour a lot. And the often-mentioned approach of having +1 to +2 or +3 bonuses being non-magical in nature is good as well.

It's another rules change, but you could try making spellcasting classes into prestige classes that have certain prerequisites that cannot be met until 4th or 5th level (or whenever you decide). Spells like cure light wounds, purify food and drink, mending, charm person, command, cause fear, endure elements, remove fear, detect poison, silent image, mage hand, sleep, comprehend languages or disguise self all become rather insignificant for most PCs very quickly. But even the most inexperienced spellcasters can cast these spells every day, and even spellcasters are exceedingly rare, these minor magics would have such a dramatic effect in a community that it is kind of hard to believe that the average townsfolk has never seen or heard of them. But if you suddenly make it so that only characters who have already advanced to mid-levels in another class can cast spells, then all of these minor magics suddenly become truly rare and difficult to obtain and it makes a lot more sense that the vast majority of people would never have seen them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Accuracy to the source material is secondary to the fact that it is a game. If one wants absolute accuracy to the source material, one should just read the books.

Accuracy is great if you want to play in that author's setting.

If you don't want to play in that setting, find another game.

It doesn't preserve game balance because one player is often going to end up rolling well, most players will get an average result, and one player will often get a sub-par result due to the random die roll and get a character that isn't very fun to play because it gets outclassed by everyone else

and

Just because it accurately depicts the source material doesn't make it good design. If that was the setting, I would argue that it's not a good setting for a game. Period.

It's just not fun.

Did you ever play the game?

Despite what you see as flaws, it was a blast to play for all involved. For several years, in fact. The primary campaign featured 2 PCs on opposite ends of the % rolls out of 8 total PCs...and yet nobody complained about a "subpar" character.

Just because one player can call on otherworldly beings for help and another can barely stand upright doesn't mean that fun isn't being had. That spellcaster isn't any more durable than anyone else, and is probably less so. And he's glad to have his buddy Oook nearby.

Oook, OTOH, got a new shiny thing on almost a daily basis. Very nice shiny things.

See- the world (and the game) didn't have a magic system like D&D- you didn't sling fireballs & the like. Instead, you summoned otherplanar beings to do your bidding- elementals, demons & virtues- and either directed them to do your bidding or bound their essenses into objects.

No matter how powerful a spellcaster you were, there were only so many critters you could control simultaneously, so many objects you could use at one time. Try to do everything yourself, you die.

You still needed teamwork.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

If a player wants to be a wizard but rolls an 8 for Int, they can't really be a wizard now can they?

It has been a very long time since I rolled 3d6 in order for a character. If I were in such a game, I imagine that I'd roll the dice and then see what sort of character I could make out of a given set of rolls rather than going in with a character concept. It would be quite different from point-buy, to say the least.

 

[Remathilis]

It has been a very long time since I rolled 3d6 in order for a character. If I were in such a game, I imagine that I'd roll the dice and then see what sort of character I could make out of a given set of rolls rather than going in with a character concept. It would be quite different from point-buy, to say the least.

It can work, but there are some disadvantages:

* Potentially, you could have a lot of similar characters (3 human fighters) and lack a specific roll (no one rolled well enough to get a cleric)
* Because of this, it works better in games with many more players than four. (aka more chances to fill all the roles and absorb redundant classes).
* You are vastly more likely to see clerics, wizards, thieves and fighters than druids, monks, bards, and rangers. You'll also have many more humans than not. (This is due to class or race mins of older editions. In 3e, you'll see more core-four because they have less MAD.)

It used to work in older D&D because sometimes the only thing affected by an ability score was how much bonus XP you were getting (prime requisites). Now, with scores affecting skills, class abilities, and spellcasting power, it random in order becomes a bit of a crapshoot to see if you get a playable character out if it that is useful (sigh, add another fighter to the party guys).

Of course, we've always done arrange to taste (if for no other reason than to get a mix of classes) so my experiences with it are small.

 

[Polydamas]

Two ideas, first:

Sometimes, instead of magic items, give talents, gifts and blessings. Instead of an amulet of +1 natural armor, you've learned the technique of stone. Instead of a ring of evasion, you've received the Faerie Queen's blessing. After facing Snarg the Azure Terror in his glory, you will never be affected by dragonfear again. Just keep track of these abilities like permanent magic items. Your players and villains will still be of the same power level, but it won't be item based. These abilities can grow and change as the campaign progresses.

Second idea ( alot more work):

If you have no magic shops, you don't have to worry as much about market price for magic items. This allows you to make magic items more plot based.

"This is the ring As'vir, forged for my friend to cause his fire spells greater potency. After his death, it passed to my father. For him the ring did nothing. The lich king stole it, and with As'vir the monster's gaze was green flame that left no ash. My bethroved took it from the lich's scattered corpse at the Battle for the Mound, and it caused her to be consumed by dark fire. She screamed as her new form destroyed two armies, and in the end only this ring remained. For me, the ring protects me from the forge's flames. The mages tell me it is a random effect, but I believe it is the spirit of my beloved protecting me. I can give it to you...but I don't know how it will react. It can bring weal or woe, like all such items"

Magic items in this world are very sensitive and changeable. How they act depends on who created them, who wields them, what situations they are exposed and what they are used for. It normally takes at least two sunrises for an item to sync with a weilder, and no one can predict exactly who it will react. Further experiences may cause a bond with the weilder to deepen.

for example, an identify of the ring As'vir will reveal that it has some power over flame. If you give it to a first level character, you can choose an appropriate first level effect. as the character gains in levels, it may reveal new powers depending on the situations it is exposed to (if they are constantly hit by lightening bolts, maybe it develops a resistance to electricity as well). If a sixth level character takes the item and they under the wealth guidelines, it may fill an appropraite slot...perhaps granting the power of flame shield once a day. Slaying a dragon with it on may grant a power over elemental creatures...who knows?

However, you can allow some neat plot twists in this setting. A six year old girl might be perfectly attuned to the ring and have it manifest as a ring of fire elemental control.

A character with a craft feat can choose the abilities and power for the character they craft it for. Anyone else who uses it may get surprised (orcs should never try As'vir, as it mas made by dwarf smiths)

Spellcraft might be used to predict the effects in a rough way (no take ten or twenty, secret roll) and Use magic device can be used to try to force it to adopt a certain aspect with the wearer (offensive, defensive)

Character actions might effect the items too. Sharpening the magic blade may make it keen or vorpal, cleaning it all the time may in return grant you a charisma bonus when wielding it...
or perhaps the murder's blade will take on the aspect of cursed berserking."
with such a setting, magic items are very unpredictable, and everyone of them is potentially dangerous in the wrong hands.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

My only advice/thoughts on trying to run a Low-Magic game (which I have given up trying to do) is to remember that just because a +2 mace is the rarest of rare holy relics with a 1000 verse history to the PCs and their world at large....to the players themselves its still just a +2 mace. Sure its a +2 mace that you put a lot of time and effort of developing a backstory for, but its still a +2 mace.

I don't think its possible to recapture the wonder of DnD-Days-Gone-By just by making the world low-magic.

DS

 

[Remathilis]

Ahem. Back to Topic

I just thought of a few more. Bare with me.

* Bite the bullet and go core classes only. That means there is only arcane and divine magic. No incarnum, psionics, invocations, infusions, truenames, maneuvers, mysteries, or pactbindings. It will go a long way to keeping magic special as opposed to "one of many".

* Kill (or downplay) a few races while your at it.

* Keep Spell Compendium a DM book only. Let clerics learn new spells with a spellcraft check when they find/research them, and wizards/sorcs new spells when they stumble upon them. No free spells from SC!

* Ditto with Magic Item Compendium.

* Create a list of "acceptable" PrCs.

* Ban ANY feat that grants spellcasting ability (like those ones In Comp Arcane) for free.

Just a few more ideas since last Thought about it.