M&M: Every stat is a dump stat?

[Terramotus]

So, my GM is thinking of running a superhero game, with an eye towards Mutants and Masterminds since we know D20.

But after reading through the book, I can make no sense of the neutering they've done to stats. It boggles my mind. My reading of the system is that, to make efficient use of my points for a character who is a melee combatant, I want to have as low a score in all of my stats as my GM will allow me to take, unless I want to be a skill monkey also (and even then, it's questionable). I think they have achieved the stated goal in the sidebar of equalizing the stats - every stat is now a dump stat!

All of the saves are cheaper to buy at 1 point per +1 than the stats are than the relevant ability score, so I don't need stats unless I want to be super good at one type of save. It only makes sense to put any points into a stat for skills if you want more than 4 skills for a given stat, since it's the same to put one point into the appropriate save and 1 point for 4 skill points as it is to put the two points into a stat for the effective +1.

I can't imagine many dex or con checks that aren't included in the skill checks, so it seems like the only limits are how ludicrous a character your GM will let you build! I can see putting decent points into Int, and Wisdom for the purpose of not having to deal with the issues of my character not being smart enough to make the decisions I'm making for him, but that's about it.

My GM kind of likes it, because it lets you make characters that are effective without being physically amazing, implying other sources of power. But I don't want to deal with the metaphysical questions of how much of my toughness is physical and how much is mental toughness in my RPGs, and I see no need to model this in a superhero RPG, of all things. IMO, given a hypothetical Superman character built to the best the system is capable, someone with no superpowers and a Dex of 4 should never be able to dodge a punch from him. Not unless he roll a 20 and Superman rolls a 1. But under this system someone with no Powers and a Dex of 4 could easily pull this off if the point total were the same.

For the life of me, I really can't see why stats weren't removed completely from this system. Or am I missing something major? Barring that, does anyone know know any good house rules that either remove the stats or impose minimums on stats for given attack, defense, and save bonuses? Heh, or maybe just suggest a better superhero system.

And by the way, don't get me wrong - I'm not all about the munchkinism over here. I would just rather not have to be constantly guessing at how many points I have to waste in stats just to make sure that my character makes some semblance of sense.

 

[Victim]

Most stats are package deals - generally, the value of the stat is at least equal the bonuses and skill values. About the only real stinker is CHA, since it only affects skills and unless you want multiple Performs, there are only 7 CHA skills. So unless you want to have skill bonuses over PL+5, multiple performs, or plan to use Inspire, buying CHA is always worse than buying the skills.

For instance, Dex provides bonuses to more than 4 skills, adds to initiative, and Reflex. It's worth a bit more than its cost in bonuses, but not all characters will value the skill boosts equally. STR is pretty much at the break even point, with 2 skills, jumping, lifting, and damage. Con is an easy bargin at 3 points of value (recovery, Fort, toughness) for 2 cost.

Finally, stat drains incapacitate characters if they drop them to zero; skill or attack drains are bad, but not so crippling.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Having played in a couple of M&M games for about a year now, I can tell you that there are no dump stats. However, unlike other systems, you don't need to buy up any stat to be effective, either. Choose the stats appropriate to your character and have fun.

With the eternal danger of Drain attacks, you'll want to have most or all of your stats above the campaign's power level. Additionally, you never know when you'll find yourself in desperate need of successful skill or ability checks; having ability scores that aren't a liability is extremely useful in those situations. Computing most derived values, including initiative modifiers and jumping distances, relies solely upon ability scores and the (few) relevant powers. For doing cool things, like hurling cars at your enemies, or hitting them with buses, you'll generally be relying upon your strength for damage; so, when you start doing cool stuff, you'll be very glad you're not a cripple. And believe me, GMs get just as bored with repetitive attackers as comic book audiences do. Some of them will start to make those attacks less effective because of their boredom.

Finally, it's not about points, it's about power level. Any hypothetical superman build is probably PL 15 or higher, while sir chumps-a-lot is probably no higher than PL 10. Given those facts, supes is going to hit him the vast majority of the time, and cream him with every successful attack.

 

[Dalamar]

IMO, given a hypothetical Superman character built to the best the system is capable, someone with no superpowers and a Dex of 4 should never be able to dodge a punch from him. Not unless he roll a 20 and Superman rolls a 1. But under this system someone with no Powers and a Dex of 4 could easily pull this off if the point total were the same.

If a character is easily are able to dodge blows by Superman, then they obviously are a martial artist master or extremely lucky. Just because a character does not have anything from the Powers section of the rules does not mean they aren't extraordinary.

 

[Particle_Man]

If a character is easily are able to dodge blows by Superman, then they obviously are a martial artist master or extremely lucky. Just because a character does not have anything from the Powers section of the rules does not mean they aren't extraordinary.

Didn't Karate Kid hold off Superman for a while in Legion of Super-Heroes?

 

[Terramotus]

If a character is easily are able to dodge blows by Superman, then they obviously are a martial artist master or extremely lucky. Just because a character does not have anything from the Powers section of the rules does not mean they aren't extraordinary.

Understood. But there seems to be no way in the default rules to tell the difference between someone who's superpowered and someone who's not. Let's take a hypothetical Iron Man character. He's an utterly normal person inside awesome armor. So I take all of his powers and strength enhancements and put them as part of the device. But when Tony removes all of that armor, he's nearly as tough and badass because his base saves, attack, and defense bonus are all his own.

It gets even worse with someone like Captain Marvel. In the rules as written, I don't see any way to make 13 year old Billy Batson not a ninja who could clean the clock of anyone in his town!

I'm seriously starting to wonder what all of the people who recommend this system are smoking.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Understood. But there seems to be no way in the default rules to tell the difference between someone who's superpowered and someone who's not. Let's take a hypothetical Iron Man character. He's an utterly normal person inside awesome armor. So I take all of his powers and strength enhancements and put them as part of the device. But when Tony removes all of that armor, he's nearly as tough and badass because his base saves, attack, and defense bonus are all his own.

First I'd argue that he is not a normal person inside the armor, but if you did want to create a character who was you can easily buy saves, attack, and defense bonuses with the pool of points from Device rather, so that you will lose them when you take the armor off.

It gets even worse with someone like Captain Marvel. In the rules as written, I don't see any way to make 13 year old Billy Batson not a ninja who could clean the clock of anyone in his town!

Take a look at the Normal Identity drawback on page 126.

 

[Terramotus]

First I'd argue that he is not a normal person inside the armor, but if you did want to create a character who was you can easily buy saves, attack, and defense bonuses with the pool of points from Device rather, so that you will lose them when you take the armor off.

Ok, I didn't read closely enough on the device. I assumed that it was just allowed Powers to be purchased like Alternate Form. That works.

Take a look at the Normal Identity drawback on page 126.

I was aware of that, but it doesn't address the issue of base attacks, defense, and saves. It says "extraordinary" abilities are lost, but how much of the base attack bonus is extraordinary? I can't find anywhere that normal human max is ever defined.

I've been reading through the Mastermind's Manual, and I think a few rules from there and a little bit of house ruling can fix all of this. It keeps the system from messing with my brain too much.

The Super Abilities rule from the Mastermind's Manual is a must, which means that any stat over a certain GM-specified total (20) must be bought in the form of the Enhanced Ability Power. I would personally prohibit any changes to the normal stats after character creation as well, which could lead to a potential situation where a strong hero has less than the maximum possible strength if his base body wasn't human maximum. I consider this a good thing, although I might consider allowing a player to put more points here, up to a final max of 24, over time to represent the character truly becoming the best in the world.

Next, the distinction needs to be made between skill and super-poweredness. Any base bonuses to base attack bonus, defense, and saves greater than the character's relevant normal stat are considered to be extraordianry powers. For simplicity purposes, the highest of Strength or Dexterity can be used.

The more complicated method of achieving this, which I think I prefer, is one that caps base Attack, Defense, and Save bonuses at the relevant stat's bonus, and then adding Enhanced Attack, Defense, and Save Powers, which can be purchased at the same rate as normal. This would allow Alternate Form to boost combat abilities and preserve the existing balance of the system, while providing a rationale for how everything relates.

The optional rule in the Mastermind's Manual where Attack Focus, Attack Specialization, and Dodge Focus feats all are all capped at the relevant stat bonus should also be used. If a hard cap is used on the base bonuses, this would be calculated separately, but still subject to the normal Power Level limits.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I was aware of that, but it doesn't address the issue of base attacks, defense, and saves. It says "extraordinary" abilities are lost, but how much of the base attack bonus is extraordinary? I can't find anywhere that normal human max is ever defined.

Any and all of it that come from the Enhanced (Trait) power.
And there are no maximum base attack, defense, or save bonuses for "normal" humans. There are levels of proficiency, which correspond to the same levels as skills, but there are no limits beyond PL. Some fairly normal humans (SWAT, professional mercenaries, super-spies, etc) are extremely good at combat, granting them a higher PL to allow for that. But Joe Schmoe on the street is PL 0. So his maximum attack bonus is +0, his maximum damage is +0, and his maximum skill ranks and save bonuses are +5.
As far as ability scores go, there's a lovely table (page 30 of the core book) that explains just how good an ability score is. The un-powered human maximum is listed as 24 or 25. This would be the abilities of someone like Captain America, who is at the ultimate peak of human physical ability. Again, the maximum ability score of a character is capped by PL. For PL 0, the maximum is 20.


Your 'limitations' system doesn't allow for attack/damage and defense/toughness trade-offs like the martial artist archetype. All of his kung-fu skill is suddenly a super power that can be nullified willy-nilly. Similarly, Captain America's combat prowess is suddenly a nullify-able power rather than the product of years of intense training and deadly experience.
Go ahead and do what you need to do to make the system feel good to you.
But please don't advocate forcing such methods on anyone else.

Have fun!

P.S. Tony Stark (not Iron Man) was trained in combat by Cap. I'd expect Tony to be nearly as badass out of his armor as he is in it. Just like Cap with and without his shield. Both are exceedingly well trained, in addition to whatever devices they have.

 

[Krolik]

I was aware of that, but it doesn't address the issue of base attacks, defense, and saves. It says "extraordinary" abilities are lost, but how much of the base attack bonus is extraordinary? I can't find anywhere that normal human max is ever defined.

I think you've missed the point of the Normal Identity Drawback. What you often do in that case is write 2 character sheets. The super-human form gets the Drawback. The normal form is substantially weaker then the superhuman form, generally in the normal range of most abilities, though someone like Ironman would still have his exceptional Intelligence. It's suggested that the normal's PL should be half or less of the super's. The Drawback is there to turn Bruce Banner into the Hulk or Billy Batson into Captain Marvel. You would create 1 PL 10 character sheet for your Hulk homage and 1 PL 5, or less, character sheet for his Bruce Banner form. Two different identities. One super, one normal.

There is no way to define what normal human max is because there is no way of knowing what is human maximum. There's a big difference between Batman and Billy Batson, yet they are both normal humans. Batman might have a 16 Attack whereas Billy only has a 1. You define each character based on the PL and common sense rather then looking for a clear defining line between human and super.