M&M newbie question

[Ben Robbins]

For example if you buy Telekinesis it normally does not have a Save DC so you can pretty much buy as many ranks as you can afford. Now if you add the damaging extra to the power allowing you to do damage then you can only apply ranks of the TK power upto the PL limit when determining the Save DC for the power; for other applications of TK in this case you can by more ranks than the PL limit.

TK is a tricky example because you can actually use it to pick up things and throw them at people (just like normal strength), thus causing damage and requiring a save, so it would be limited by PL. The damaging extra just lets you do damage directly (crushing people, whatever) in a single action.

But otherwise quite correct.

 

[Gilwen]

TK is a tricky example because you can actually use it to pick up things and throw them at people (just like normal strength), thus causing damage and requiring a save, so it would be limited by PL. The damaging extra just lets you do damage directly (crushing people, whatever) in a single action.

But otherwise quite correct.

Yep in that instance you could only apply the PL limit to the damage save, I forgot about throwing stuff. The power itself though does not have Save DC so isn't limited by PL, just certain applications of the power are limited. So I could take TK 20 in a PL 10 game without tradeoffs but any damaging application would be limited by the PL.

Gil

 

[Mark Chance]

[TK] itself though does not have Save DC so isn't limited by PL, just certain applications of the power are limited.

Right.

Also keep in mind that trade-offs aren't necessarily static, one time swaps. For example, a PL 10 hero could have the following:

Blast +12 with an +8 attack bonus
Blast +15 with a +5 attack bonus
Blast +8 with a +12 attack bonus
Blast +10 with a +10 attack bonus

 

[Ben Robbins]

Yep in that instance you could only apply the PL limit to the damage save, I forgot about throwing stuff. The power itself though does not have Save DC so isn't limited by PL, just certain applications of the power are limited. So I could take TK 20 in a PL 10 game without tradeoffs but any damaging application would be limited by the PL.

Actually that raises a slippery but important question: can you buy things that exceed PL and just not use them?

By the rules the answer is no. PL limits apply to spending points and building characters, not actually using powers.

So in the TK example, it would be illegal to buy TK rank 20 in a PL 10 game unless you had a 0 ranged attack bonus. To get that effect you could do something clever like Flaw 10 of the ranks so that they were for "slow movement only" aka nothing violent. Or the GM could let you take ranks of Super-Strength to add to your TK 10 (a very sensible solution).

Some people have put forward overbuying as a way to get insurance against things like Drain (I have 20 protection, but I'm only using 10 of it, so I can have 10 drained and still be fine) or to adapt on the fly (I bought 14 attack and 14 damage, and sure I'm only going to use a total of 20 but I'll pick each round), but technically it's a no go. IMHO letting character overbuy stats but theoretically not use them can get complex pretty fast.

Also keep in mind that trade-offs aren't necessarily static, one time swaps. For example, a PL 10 hero could have the following:

Blast +12 with an +8 attack bonus
Blast +15 with a +5 attack bonus
Blast +8 with a +12 attack bonus
Blast +10 with a +10 attack bonus

Yep, so long as by that you mean different blasts with different attacks, through attack specialization or the accuracy power feat (my palm repulsors are blast 10 using my normal 10 ranged attack bonus, but my microlaser is blast 6 and has accuracy 2 giving me +14 to hit with it). It's pretty common to have a different attack/damage ratio for ranged and melee attacks (via attack focus).

 

[Gilwen]

Actually that raises a slippery but important question: can you buy things that exceed PL and just not use them?

By the rules the answer is no. PL limits apply to spending points and building characters, not actually using powers.

So in the TK example, it would be illegal to buy TK rank 20 in a PL 10 game unless you had a 0 ranged attack bonus. To get that effect you could do something clever like Flaw 10 of the ranks so that they were for "slow movement only" aka nothing violent. Or the GM could let you take ranks of Super-Strength to add to your TK 10 (a very sensible solution).

Some people have put forward overbuying as a way to get insurance against things like Drain (I have 20 protection, but I'm only using 10 of it, so I can have 10 drained and still be fine) or to adapt on the fly (I bought 14 attack and 14 damage, and sure I'm only going to use a total of 20 but I'll pick each round), but technically it's a no go. IMHO letting character overbuy stats but theoretically not use them can get complex pretty fast.

The following links are official answers from Steve Kenson in the official rules thread about TK. Which supports my example you quoted above. In the end though as with any of the rules it is subject to DM approval.

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=11997
http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=11189

I chose TK because it has special examples, as do a some other powers.


You are right about the over buying, in the RAW you can't over buy a power that is effected by the PL.

Gil

 

[Mark Chance]

So in the TK example, it would be illegal to buy TK rank 20 in a PL 10 game unless you had a 0 ranged attack bonus.

PL limits only affect powers that force a saving throw. TK doesn't force a saving throw. It isn't limited by PL. Damage incidentally caused by TK, such as from throwing a steel beam at someone, is limited by PL, but that's quite beside the point. A PL 10 character can purchase 20 ranks of TK since the power itself does no damage.

This only becomes problematic if one adds the Damaging extra. In this case, however, the solution is simple: Telekinesis 20 (Extra: Damaging 10; Cost: 50 pp).

 

[Ben Robbins]

The following links are official answers from Steve Kenson in the official rules thread about TK. Which supports my example you quoted above. In the end though as with any of the rules it is subject to DM approval.

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=11997
http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=11189

I chose TK because it has special examples, as do a some other powers.

You're quite right, he does say that, but I think he's creating an exception to the rules as written.

Normal strength is absolutely limited by PL. TK is strength at range, but it is 2 pts/rank for throwing damage or other combat strength checks (TK 10 gets +10 bonus), but 5 pts/rank for lifting (TK 10 has effective 50 str for lifting), like a hybrid of strength and super-strength. That's where the fuzziness is starting, because it is actually different strengths in different cases.

Normal TK can be used to disarm, trip and grapple (for no damage). By this logic what bonus am I using in those cases? Do I have to annotate the character sheet with the max combat bonuses by PL? It gets messy pretty fast, as you can see. It would have been smoother to just make it official to use super-strength to raise TK for non-combat lifting.

But now we're just talking about TK as a special case -- we all agree about the rest it seems.