Mage Hand Question

[renau1g]

One of my players this week came up with the following idea and I wanted to know your thoughts:

The characters were guarding a town from an oncoming goblin attack (they're lvl 1) and the wizard asked if he could use Mage Hand to pick up a 20lb piece of metal and drop it on the attackers (as per the spells description) or use it to drop a container of flammable oil on the ground and combine that with scorching burst to cause more damage as it catches on fire.

I allowed it as I thought it was a great use of a cantrip, but does anyone have thoughts into this use?

 

[Mort_Q]

As long as what is being done isn't potentially more damaging or more effective that an at-will attack power, why not?

Drop a chunk of metal... improvised weapon damage...
Spill some oil... scorching burst next round...

 

[underfoot007]

One of my players this week came up with the following idea and I wanted to know your thoughts:

The characters were guarding a town from an oncoming goblin attack (they're lvl 1) and the wizard asked if he could use Mage Hand to pick up a 20lb piece of metal and drop it on the attackers (as per the spells description) or use it to drop a container of flammable oil on the ground and combine that with scorching burst to cause more damage as it catches on fire.

I allowed it as I thought it was a great use of a cantrip, but does anyone have thoughts into this use?

I cannot locate a 20 lb block of metal nor flamable oil in the "adventure gear" table on pg-222, but I would not let someone auto hit. After all, it is only a cantrip.

 

[renau1g]

Agreed. Wasn't an auto hit, but an attack vs. Reflex for the metal and the oil was used to add 1d4 to the scorching bursts effect.

They were guarding the town so they had access to some items that they probably wouldn't adventure with.

 

[N0Man]

I asked to drop something on someone with Mage Hand when playing the D&D Experience Demo, and the DM wouldn't let me. I thought it was lame of him to restrict that.

Personally, I would allow it with these things in mind:
1) Require that it uses a Standard action to attack with it.
2) Base it on existing powers, don't let them abuse it to be more powerful than they should be. Use existing powers or the suggestions of "Actions Rules don't cover" in the DMG.
3) Enemies might do these things to them as well.
4) There might be dangers in carrying around lots of flammable materials on your person.

For dropping an item (non-flammable), you might choose to make the attack as Int vs Reflex, or maybe even Int vs AC, and you might even through in a +2 bonus for the surprise of coming at them from above. Maybe make the damage 1d6 +3, taken from the DMG's suggested damage for an improvised attack option.

As for dropping the oil, that's a tad trickier really. You don't want it abusable, and having them use some overpowered tactic over and over again, but at the same time you don't really want it to tell them 'no' arbitrarily.

I'd use Int vs Reflex to hit. I'd really determine the damage based on how often you believed they were going to be using this tactic, and how often expensive you make the oil for them. If it's used in moderation, then might be able to give them more oomph from it than if they try to use it all the time.

Also, I might be inclined to use Cloud of Daggers as a guide. Change the damage to fire, make it make 1 square burn, deal 1d6 of damage, and continue to do 3 damage in that square or something, and persist a turn or 2.

In a nutshell, balance it towards what they can already do, roughly. Don't let them use these methods in order to deal more damage than they are supposed to, but maybe to allow for interesting tactics, a different flavor, or maybe even tactically to try to attack them vs a different defense than normal.

And if they start carrying around lots of oil... then give them a chance of unlucky mishaps when they are near or attacked by fire.

 

[renau1g]

Thanks for the reply N0Man, good suggestions there.

I do tend to run a pretty open game and if the player's surprise me (like in this instance) I usually reward them. I often will give them bonus' to hit, damage, etc. based on how plausible (I know! Fantasy...but physics still exists) and interesting it is.

 

[Danceofmasks]

As long as what is being done isn't potentially more damaging or more effective that an at-will attack power, why not?

Drop a chunk of metal... improvised weapon damage...
Spill some oil... scorching burst next round...

Well, the thing is, players can choose to do something with their actions each round.
If that something isn't more beneficial, why should they choose it over an at-will?
(In this case, giving up their ineffectual attack this round for a slightly better attack next round)

That said, if a player uses prestidigitation to light the fuse for a nuke which blows up the world, it's not the prestidigitation that blew up the world, it's the nuke.

Shouldn't be trying to balance properties inherent in 3rd party objects with at-wills.

 

[XavTango]

This past week I used mage hand to douse a then visible Imp with beer in an effort to try and determine its whereabouts once it went invisible. the DM gave me a perception bonus which turned out to work well in my favor. We were attacked by Imps and others while drinking and eating at a tavern so in that atmosphere, all sorts of improv can and should happen.

As a DM myself from time to time I never try to inhibit creativity so I was happy to see my DM allow me to give it a try.

 

[N0Man]

Well, the thing is, players can choose to do something with their actions each round.
If that something isn't more beneficial, why should they choose it over an at-will?

For flavor, fun, and drama.

If you are just searching ways to circumvent the rules in order to find ways to do more damage, then you are pretty much just metagaming, not to mention breaking the balance that exists in the game.

If that's the kind of game you want, then go for it, but it's not for me. I tried to give an answer that I felt was fair, balanced, and is based on what is presented in the rules.

I will reward players with some extra bonuses when they use their environments and think tactically and improvise in the heat of the moment. I might even allow them to use a few cheesy tactics in tricks, if they are used in moderation.

However, if a player overdoes it, and is using schemes and megagamey tricks constantly, in order to gain abilities or damage that are beyond what they should have at that level, then I will absolutely limits on things, or create repercussions.

If one of my players starts traveling with large amounts of oil and lobbing it nearly every combat, he's going to be in trouble the first time an enemy uses a fire attack... and he might start running across enemies using more powerful attacks than they should have, in order to balance things out.

It's better to just reign the players in a little in a subtle manner rather than letting them trivialize encounters with overpowered tactics that you let them have, or turning your game into an arms race.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Anyone can get bull-rushed off a 200 foot cliff, and damage from the fall won't vary much, regardless of level.

External factors should be balanced with other external factors, not at-wills.
Dropping a 20 lb. rock with mage hand (from the side) on someone is not much different from dropping a 20 lb. rock you have in your hands, without getting to look directly down on them.

The factors of damage and such shouldn't take powers into consideration.
Sure, you may be using different stats, but a falling rock is a falling rock.