Magic Disruption can kill highest level spells?

[Notmousse]

In Complete Mage the feat Magic Disruption forces the target magic user to make a Concentration check, or lose 2 caster levels for casting their current spell. IIRC you can not cast a spell if your caster level isn't sufficient to cast spells of that level.

So my question is this: If using Magic Disruption on an opponent casting their highest level spell (that has no caster level boosts, and is either at the minimum caster level or one above it), is it possible to cause the spell to fail, thus wasting the slot?

 

[UltimaGabe]

Since the feat doesn't say anything about losing spells, I'd say that the spell can still be cast, just at a (previously impossible) lower caster level.

That being said, considering it's a Concentration check (which, if a caster fails, means something's seriously wrong with the caster), I could easily see someone avoiding the rule-screwing implications of my previous ruling, and causing the caster to lose the spell.

 

[Geoff Watson]

IIRC you can not cast a spell if your caster level isn't sufficient to cast spells of that level.

There is no such restriction. If there was, I'm sure the rules for negative levels would mention it.

Geoff.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is no such restriction. If there was, I'm sure the rules for negative levels would mention it.

Check PHB p171.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be highe enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a Fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a Fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast Fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast Fireball).

Why can Mialee not choose to cast Fireball with a caster level lower than 5th? Because 5th is the minimum level required for a wizard to cast Fireball.

Since it is a minimum level required to cast the spell, it is not merely that one may not voluntarily reduce the caster level lower; if a wizard's caster level is involuntarily reduced below the minimum level required for a wizard to cast Fireball, then that wizard does not meet the requirements for casting Fireball.

If a 6th level wizard loses 2 caster levels due to Magic Disruption, his caster level is 4... which is below the minimum level required for a wizard to cast Fireball. Therefore, he is presently incapable of casting Fireball.

-Hyp.

 

[EvilGM]

That's a good point. I wonder if that was taken into consideration when making the feat, and that was their intention. Clarification would be nice.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I am currently playing a monster class which gets chain lightening as a spell like ability at 6th level. Caster level for spell like abilities is based on hit dice. My caster level for the spell like ability is a full half of that required to get the spell normally (and its save is still based on the normal spell level.) When I use the spell like ability, I just slot "6" into all the caster level dependant variables. And cast it.

Just because you can't normally choose to put a lower number into those slots than the minimum to cast the spell doesn't mean that an effect which forces you to put lower numbers there eliminates the spell. Notably in hypersmurfs example, it doesn't say "If she tries, the spell fails and is lost from her prepared spells." It just says that she can't choose to cast it at a lower level.

There are a lot of things that can happen to a character based on effects on them that they can't choose to do voluntarily. An example are spells where a sucessful reflex save moves the character out of the spell's area (like blade barrier). Baring imediate action spells, a character can't choose to take a 5 foot step on someone else's initiative count - unless that someone else casts a Blade Barrier where the character is standing. Then they do something (largely involuntarily) that they can never simply choose to do. Its the same way with this feat. It can force an effect that the caster cannot choose voluntarily. "And that's OK"

 

[Hypersmurf]

Notably in hypersmurfs example, it doesn't say "If she tries, the spell fails and is lost from her prepared spells." It just says that she can't choose to cast it at a lower level.

But it also gives the reason that she can't.

If it just said "A wizard may not choose to lower the caster level of fireball below 5th", that wouldn't prevent outside effects lowering the caster level below 5th.

But it says she can't, because 5th is the minimum level for a wizard to cast fireball. Not the minimum level to which a wizard may voluntarily lower fireball; the minimum level to cast.

Not being able to voluntarily lower it below 5th is an effect of that; not being able to cast if your caster level is too low is another effect of it.

-Hyp.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Not being able to voluntarily lower it below 5th is an effect of that; not being able to cast if your caster level is too low is another effect of it.

-Hyp.

One of those "effects" is actually in the rules. The other is nowhere in the rules, including in the descriptions a feat and class abilities where it would be quite relevant. And you ignored my example of a place where the rules explicitly allow a spell to be replicated at a much lower than "minimum" caster level.

It would be a reasonable rule if it was there. Maybe they'll add it in the errata if enough people ask and that was what they meant to happen.

 

[Hypersmurf]

One of those "effects" is actually in the rules. The other is nowhere in the rules, including in the descriptions a feat and class abilities where it would be quite relevant.

Sure it is - I quoted it for you. "5th (the minimum level for a wizard to cast Fireball)".

And you ignored my example of a place where the rules explicitly allow a spell to be replicated at a much lower than "minimum" caster level.

The minimum caster level for who?

The minimum level for a wizard to cast a 3rd level spell is 5th. The minimum level for a sorcerer to cast a 3rd level spell is 6th. The minimum level for a bard to cast a 3rd level spell is 7th. The minimum level for an Ur-Priest to cast a 3rd level spell is 3rd.

What's the rule for spell-like abilities? "The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice."

So the rule is that spell-like abilities have no minimum caster level (and note the confirmation that there is a minimum level a spellcasting character needs in order to cast a spell).

The fact that a hypothetical monster can use a Fireball SLA with a caster level of 1 doesn't change that 5th is the minimum level for a Wizard to cast Fireball.

-Hyp.