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<blockquote data-quote="Rystil Arden" data-source="post: 3817394" data-attributes="member: 29014"><p>And that's what you have with the D&D spell limit too--a set of a goodly number of alternate powers (not as many as you might expect, considering that many of the spells are not really applicable in M&M and many are lower level and not really a good idea to use). That's how Martin was originally built, but just as you said, I came to the same epiphany that I could do more in a better and easier manner with Variable. It's still a massive limit on a truly Variable power.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I count 37 that you admit he can't do and 2 that require animal forms like in your example Shapeshifter. That does not count a bunch that I disagree with you on, nor does it count another bunch where there are clear subsets in the power of which more than half are unavailable (frex, having Wind Wall is not even close to half as effective as having any Deflect power build you want, having Gust of Wind isn't even close to as good as total Air Control, and that nowithstanding that Air and Earth control are only half of the possible Elemental Controls--but I didn't include any of those).</p><p></p><p>And the Infinity Blast example I believe still holds. Infinity Blast itself is a legal power, and if you don't like the finite subset, try this one Infinity Blast Limited (Fire Only). That's clearly a fair Limit to place on it (you lose over half of your options and the ability to make a blast of any sort allows you to exploit enemy weaknesses. Compare to Flying Limited with space for wings).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's just not true. Let's look at Deflect. A Mage with regular Variable Magic could make a spell that deflects all mental attacks made on herself and her allies right back at the user. She could also make a spell that lets her redirect all arrows and bullets and energy blasts in a radius around her to whatever target she wishes. And many many more. Martin with the proposed Limited can cast Wind Wall and only Wind Wall.</p><p></p><p>A bunch of fire monsters are menacing the group, approaching in approximately a cone shape. The Mage with true Variable Magic can make a cone of ice to slay them. Or if they were in a circle, she could make a Burst of ice. Martin can make a line of lightning which probably hits only one or two. His only burst is Fireball, which won't work.</p><p></p><p>The Mage with true Variable Magic can cast a spell to speak with animals or inanimate objects. Martin can only speak the languages of intelligent beings (which in LS is mostly humans). </p><p></p><p>The Mage with true Variable Magic can heal herself and her comrades with a spell. Martin can't. She can Teleport extremely far, and Martin can just do a few hundred feet. She can telepathically communicate, move things with her mind, and he just can't. If she needs to hit something insubstantial or on another dimension, she can just add that extra. If she needs an indirect attack, that works for her too (but he needs Line of Effect). She can add Homing power feat a few times and make her magical rays come back again and again until they hit, or the powerful Autofire extra (or both). He can't.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Interesting. I guess that makes sense, but since the flavour of having gadgets versus having magic is the only real difference between them, it would be an incredible double standard (or an attempt to just make me leave LS, which, if that is the goal, you can just tell me to my face) to accept one and not the other.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rystil Arden, post: 3817394, member: 29014"] And that's what you have with the D&D spell limit too--a set of a goodly number of alternate powers (not as many as you might expect, considering that many of the spells are not really applicable in M&M and many are lower level and not really a good idea to use). That's how Martin was originally built, but just as you said, I came to the same epiphany that I could do more in a better and easier manner with Variable. It's still a massive limit on a truly Variable power. I count 37 that you admit he can't do and 2 that require animal forms like in your example Shapeshifter. That does not count a bunch that I disagree with you on, nor does it count another bunch where there are clear subsets in the power of which more than half are unavailable (frex, having Wind Wall is not even close to half as effective as having any Deflect power build you want, having Gust of Wind isn't even close to as good as total Air Control, and that nowithstanding that Air and Earth control are only half of the possible Elemental Controls--but I didn't include any of those). And the Infinity Blast example I believe still holds. Infinity Blast itself is a legal power, and if you don't like the finite subset, try this one Infinity Blast Limited (Fire Only). That's clearly a fair Limit to place on it (you lose over half of your options and the ability to make a blast of any sort allows you to exploit enemy weaknesses. Compare to Flying Limited with space for wings). That's just not true. Let's look at Deflect. A Mage with regular Variable Magic could make a spell that deflects all mental attacks made on herself and her allies right back at the user. She could also make a spell that lets her redirect all arrows and bullets and energy blasts in a radius around her to whatever target she wishes. And many many more. Martin with the proposed Limited can cast Wind Wall and only Wind Wall. A bunch of fire monsters are menacing the group, approaching in approximately a cone shape. The Mage with true Variable Magic can make a cone of ice to slay them. Or if they were in a circle, she could make a Burst of ice. Martin can make a line of lightning which probably hits only one or two. His only burst is Fireball, which won't work. The Mage with true Variable Magic can cast a spell to speak with animals or inanimate objects. Martin can only speak the languages of intelligent beings (which in LS is mostly humans). The Mage with true Variable Magic can heal herself and her comrades with a spell. Martin can't. She can Teleport extremely far, and Martin can just do a few hundred feet. She can telepathically communicate, move things with her mind, and he just can't. If she needs to hit something insubstantial or on another dimension, she can just add that extra. If she needs an indirect attack, that works for her too (but he needs Line of Effect). She can add Homing power feat a few times and make her magical rays come back again and again until they hit, or the powerful Autofire extra (or both). He can't. Interesting. I guess that makes sense, but since the flavour of having gadgets versus having magic is the only real difference between them, it would be an incredible double standard (or an attempt to just make me leave LS, which, if that is the goal, you can just tell me to my face) to accept one and not the other. [/QUOTE]
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