Magic in the LS Campaign

[Hand of Vecna]

Moved to a different thread to prevent thread drift.

I've got it actually--it's very easy: It'd basically trivial to have a Variable Magic with the Limited (D&D Magic) Flaw. It just comes down to having about 10 to 15 consecutive minutes to actually scribble it out. Then there will be an alt that powers the staff as well, but when he loses the staff, he is left with only his simple magics (and a big Int loss).

"Only D&D Magic" isn't a Limit, though, it'd be more along the lines of a Descriptor. Even foregoing the obvious "Wish is a D&D magic spell," D&D's got spells inspired by hundreds of different sources, and I'd say there's a 99.99% chance that there's a published D&D spell for any effect you can think of (or at least any effect you can readily do with the M&M system). Even going for "Only D&D-Style Arcane Magic" would still be just a Descriptor.

Now, if you wanted to have Magus's magic be done in the style of D&D magic -- with the lengthy memorizing/preparation and limited number of spells per day -- then that would be worth a few Flaws and Drawbacks. Something like:

Variable Power 10 (multiple powers each with the Magic descriptor, up to 50pp total [7pp/rank]; Flaws: Action/Full, Distracting, Fades; Drawbacks Action (requires 1 hour to change allocation; -4pp), Power Loss (cannot change allocation or recover without spellbooks; Uncommon, Minor, -1pp), Power Loss (unable to cast spells without material components, gestures, and/or incantations; Uncommon, Minor, -1pp). [Total Cost 4pp/rank - 6pp = 34pp]

Under this build, Magus would require one hour of studying to change or determine the allocation of his Variable Power pool (5pp/rank) due to the Action Flaw and Drawback. Once allocated, he can use those powers normally; it just takes time to reallocate his chosen powers. Furthermore, since casting magic leaves Magus (like all D&D-style casters) rather vulnerable, the Distracting Flaw was added (though the configurations/spells are acquired at their normal cost, since the Distracting component was paid for in the Variable Power). Finally, the Fades Flaw takes 1pp away with every use, and Magus can choose which of his allocated powers is lost (specifically one that has been cast) if necessary as the rank of Variable Power decreases, thus decreasing the available pool of allocated points, and representing the "Fire and Forget" nature of D&D's Vance-ian magic. Spells require 2 of the 3 types of components (so gestures and incantations, or gestures and materials, or incantations and materials).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh, I see what you thought. No, no, you have it backwards. (also I left out "from the PHB" in that one post, though I've mentioned it before in regards to Martin)

I don't want Vancian style. I want his casting to be very M&M style on the use, but D&D style on the effects. Also, note that Magus is limited to PHB D&D spells of 4th-level and below. I should say, that is actually quite a massive limiter--and by design! Even if we assume that the PHB D&D spells represent the set of all effects (and I don't), 0-4th level magic is exactly half of that (and the weaker half of it by design). Since half (and not necessarily the weaker half!) as a rule of thumb is the design principle around Limited, I think that it is a more than fair Limited. If a player in my home game came to me with that Limited, I would give them at least the Flaw, and maybe an extra point or two extra for a Drawback (since it is clearly not enough for a -2 flaw yet). I'm not asking for that though. Not even giving a -1 Limited for that is ridiculous--if that's the case, I might as well not have a limit at all and just pay the extra points.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

I still don't see "Only D&D PHB Spells of 4th level or lower" as much of a Limit, though (especially if it's any D&D spell of 4th level or lower, arcane or divine). What M&M effects can he not do within that frame? (Raise Dead and similar resurrection magics, and True Seeing, are the only things that immediately come to mind.)

Though I do suppose a "no power can be built on more than [X] pp or have [Y] ranks" Limit may be worth a Flaw.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I still don't see "Only D&D PHB Spells of 4th level or lower" as much of a Limit, though (especially if it's any D&D spell of 4th level or lower, arcane or divine). What M&M effects can he not do within that frame? (Raise Dead and similar resurrection magics, and True Seeing, are the only things that immediately come to mind.)

Though I do suppose a "no power can be built on more than [X] pp or have [Y] ranks" Limit may be worth a Flaw.

Actually, it's a huge limit (and yes, it should be arcane, thanks for the catch).

I don't have much time right now, but let's start with the 'A's--Cannot do Absorption, Adaptation, any of the Alternate Forms except Gaseous, Anatomic Separation, Animal Control, Animal Mimicry, Animate Objects, Astral Form. Can MAYBE do (if has seen something with many arms to use Polymorph) Additional Limbs. Can definitely do {Nothing}.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

I'm not 100% sure he'd be able to do Adaptation or Animal Mimicry anyway, since those are Variable Powers (there are no written rules on whether or not one variable power can be used to mimic another variable power, that I'm aware of).

Charm Monster's a 4th level Sor/Wiz spell, so he could get a form of Animal Control.

Animate Rope (Sor/Wiz 1) and Animate Dead (Sor/Wiz 4) would both be expressions of Animate Object.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'm not 100% sure he'd be able to do Adaptation or Animal Mimicry anyway, since those are Variable Powers (there are no written rules on whether or not one variable power can be used to mimic another variable power, that I'm aware of).

Charm Monster's a 4th level Sor/Wiz spell, so he could get a form of Animal Control.

Animate Rope (Sor/Wiz 1) and Animate Dead (Sor/Wiz 4) would both be expressions of Animate Object.

Charm Monster is definitely an Emotion Control (Love) on one target rather than Animal Control.
For, Animate Rope, I think I would make that Ensnare instead of Animate Objects, since it doesn't really do anything else. Animate Dead is a good point though, though I would point out that the Sustained (and not lasting) duration combined with the requisite corpses (and Martin's own squeamishness about using spells with the [Evil] descriptor in D&D) would render it generally not useful. Still, I didn't think of it--good catch. I would hardly say that this is a generic mandate for Animate Objects though. I mean, for the ones it even allows, it seems pretty darn spotty and limited to me, no?

 

[Hand of Vecna]

In the interests of not appearing totally negative/destructiove, let's go through and see what can be done with "Only Sor/Wiz spells of 4th level or lower," using the powers from the M&M 2E Core Book (and skipping the A's, since they've already been covered):

Blast: Magic missile (Perception Blast, with ranks in Split Attack), Fireball (Explosion Blast), Lightning Bolt (Line Area Touch Range Blast), Shout (Cone Area Touch Range Blast, with Linked Cone Area Touch Range Auditory Dazzle)
Boost: Bear’s Endurance (Boost Con 4, Total Fade, various ranks in Slow Fade), Bull’s Strength (Boost Str), Cat’s Grace (Boost Dex), Eagle’s Splendor (Boosts Cha), Fox’s Cunning (Boosts Int), Owl’s Wisdom (Boosts Wis), Flame Arrow (Boost Blast, only Blasts defined as slow projectiles)
Burrowing: Hunh, Passwall is 5th level. Possible via Polymorph of self into some burrowing critter.
Cold Control: Another one with no real D&D equivalent, at any level (not in PHB, at least)
Communication: Whispering Wind
Comprehend: Comprehend Languages and Tongues
Concealment: Invisibility and Invisibility Sphere,, and possibly Blur and Displacement
Confuse: Confusion
Corrosion: Rusting Grasp is the only one I can find, but it's a Druid (Divine) spell.
Cosmic Energy Control: Is a fancy type of Blast (see above).
Create Object: Minor Creation, Secure Shelter, Resilient Sphere
Darkness Control: Darkness
Datalink: Do I really need to say it?
Dazzle: Blindness/Deafness, and the aforementioned Shout. And potentially Stinking Cloud.
Deflect: Wind Wall
Density: Also not seeing a D&D PHB equivalent.
Device: Really don't think this should be allowable as something a Variable Power can allow anyway.
Dimensional Pocket: Rope Trick
Disintegration: Not 'till 6th level.
Drain: Chill Touch (Strike with Linked Drain Str), Ray of Enfeeblement (Ranged Drain Str), Bestow Curse (could be done as Drain), Contagion (Disease Drain), Enervation (Drain All Traits), Tough of Idiocy
Duplication: Nope
Electricity Control: Is the same as Blast (see above).
(Elemental) Control: Air Control as Gust of Wind. Earth Control as Stone Shape.
Elongation: Nada
Emotion Control: Charm Person and Charm Monster, Rage, Crushing Despair
Enhanced Ability: Could potentially be used for the first six buffing spells mentioned under Boost. Enhanced Feats (Improved Critical) for Keen Edge.
Environmental Control: Daylight (light), Sleet Storm and Solid Fog (hamper movement effect, and Linked Limited Visual Obscure)
ESP: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Fatigue: Deep Slumber, Ray of Exhaustion
Flight: Fly
Force Field: Mage Armor, and Stoneskin could be a Continues Impervious Fade Force Field.
Friction Control: No real D&D equivalent anywhere (but I really cannot think of any comic book or fantasy mage who's used magic to mimic this particular ability)
Gestalt: No, not really.
Gravity Control: Reverse Gravity's 7th level
Growth: Enlarge Person and Mass Enlarge Person
Healing: Not an Arcane spell in D&D PHB.
Hellfire Control: Not a spell in the D&D PHB.
Illusion: Silent Image, Major Image, Hallucinatory Terrain, and Illusory Wall
Immunity: Limited form for Resist Energy and Protection from Energy
Insubstantial: Gaseous Form is Insubstantial 2.
Invisibility: See Concealment.
Kinetic Control: Base effect is Blast, so see above.
Leaping: Jump
Life Control: effect is to nauseate folks, which Stinking Cloud can do.
Light Control: See Environmental Control, above.
Luck Control: Not seeing an equivalent in any D&D book.
Magic: Is what he'd be doing.
Magnetic Control: None I can find at 4th level or below.
Mental Blast: Is more of an Expanded Psionics Handbook thing.
Mimic (Trait): Has no real equivalent in D&D (that I'm aware of, anyway), and again I'm not so keen on having one Variable Thing being used to create another Variable Thing.
Mind Control: Lesser Geas (along with some sort of Linked Drain)
Mind Reading: Detect Thoughts
Mind Shield: Nondetection covers some aspect of that.
Mind Switch: No real equivalent in PHB.
Morph: Disguise Self, possibly Alter Self
Nauseate: Stinking Cloud, possibly.
Nemesis: See Mimic, above.
Nullify (Power): Dispel Magic, and Dimensional Anchor would be a Nullifying Teleport Field.
Object Mimicry: See Mimic, above.
Obscure: Darkness, Pyrotechnics (w/ Linked Suffocate)
Paralyze: Hold Person
Plant Control: More of a Druid thing.
Plasma Control: See Friction Control, above.
Possession: Soul Jar's a 5th level spell.
Power Control: Not in D&D PHB.
Protection: Possible for Mage Armor or Stoneskin.
Quickness: Not in D&D PHB.
Radiation Control: See Friction Control, above.
Regeneration: Not an Arcane thing.
Sensory Shield: Not in D&D PHB.
Shapeshift: Polymorph, if cast on self, butt hat would just as easily be done with Enhanced Traits and other powers. And, again,not keen on having one Variable Thing in another.
Shield: Shield
Shrinking: Reduce Person, Mass Reduce Person
Snare: Some aspects of Animate Rope fall under this, yes. As does Black Tentacles.
Sonic Control: Shout
Space Travel: WotC stopped caring about Spelljammer looong ago.
Spatial Control: See Teleport, below.
Speed: Expeditious Retreat
Spinning: Nada.
Strike: Chill Touch, Vampiric Touch
Stun: Daze Monster
Suffocate: Pyrotechnics (w/ Linked Obscure)
Summon (Minion): Summon Monster I-IV (a lion, 3 black bears or 3 small elementals, 5 eagles), and Unseen Servant
Super-Movement: Spider Climb for Wall Crawling. Featherfall for Slow Fall.
Super-Senses: Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Detect Undead, See Invisibility, Darkvision
Super-Speed: Could be tweaked to get something close to Haste
Super-Strength: No real equivalent in D&D.
Swimming: Possible via Polymorph of self into some swimming critter.
Telekinesis: Not 'till 5th level.
Telepathy: Not 'till 5th level (Telepathic Bond, and even that could be Super-Senses [Communication Link])
Teleport: Dimension Door
Time Control: No real D&D equivalent.
Transfer: No Arcane equivalent
Transform: Erase, Arcane Mark, and Prestidigitation could all fall under here.
Trip: Grease and Gust of Wind
Vibration Control: See Friction Control, above.
Weather Control: Not Control Weather per se, but see Environmental Control and Obscure, above.

(whew!)

 

[rgordona]

To me that list demonstrates another reason why "Only D&D PHB Spells of 4th level or lower" is not a good limit. I don't have the book, I don't intend to get it. However I would absolutly need it to GM for a character that had that limit. (Either that or a complete list of all the availavble spells statted out.)

Otherwise how do I know that the spell called Magic Missile is equivelent to a Perception Blast, it could just as easily be a Boost to Attack Focus (ranged), enchanting a rock so it can be thrown more accuratly, or an Indirect Blast or many other things.

To me this is a flaw that relies on specialist outside the game knowledge, and to me that is something best avoided.


[sblock]
Actually I do own a copy of D&D PHB it is a thin paperback in a red box. I have not looked at in a long time but I think the spells are somewhat different.[/sblock]

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Rgordona, your PHB sounds like the one from 1983 red box version of (Basic) Dungeons & Dragons. The PHB I was looking at was the hardcover D&D 3.5 PHB, released in 2003.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Rgordona, your PHB sounds like the one from 1983 red box version of (Basic) Dungeons & Dragons. The PHB I was looking at was the hardcover D&D 3.5 PHB, released in 2003.

Yep, plus the 3.5 spells are online for free at d20srd. Thanks so much HoV for that list!--I think it shows that this is a huge limit vis-a-vis Variable without that limit.

@rgordona--Add to the SRD availability the most important point, which is that unless the GM is hyper-paranoid it really doesn't matter if the GM knows the entire list of D&D spells. rgordona, the reason why earlier I said that you are sometimes like LS's Simon Cowell is that your decisions always seem to be based on the assumption that players, given the opportunity to not be under total and absolute control, are going to mug you or something. In a Supers game, it is crucial to give the players leeway and trust them. It isn't like D&D where the GM generally needs to keep a hard control of all the rules (in the M&M book, it specifically says that it's crucial to learn when to say yes). I've noticed that in Daylight Robbery--it would be a great quality to have for a D&D GM, but it may actually be working slightly cross-purpose for you in M&M. There are tons of times where it doesn't matter if the GM knows exactly what the player's doing is as long as the player does--what about acharacter who channeled mythic archetypes but was limited to only Aztec gods, and the GM doesn't know the Aztec gods? A character with super-science skills in an area where the player is actually a real-world science expert and the GM isn't. A character who was possessed by minor characters from Shakespeare plays and the GM doesn't know Shakespeare well. Etc, etc.