Magic in the LS Campaign

[Hand of Vecna]

Yep, plus the 3.5 spells are online for free at d20srd. Thanks so much HoV for that list!--I think it shows that this is a huge limit vis-a-vis Variable without that limit.

You're very welcome (took me about an hour and a half to do that!)... but it doesn't, really. It shows you can get most of those effects, either as direct 'spells' or by using polymorph (or possibly alter self) on himself to turn into some form that has the ability. Most of the things I pointed out that have no real D&D equivalent -- the things like Plasma Control or Radiation Control -- are just types of Blast. The only ten effects he absolutely cannot get are Anatomic Separation, Density, Elongation, Healing, Immovable, Luck Control, Quickness, Space Travel, Super-Strength, and Telekinesis (though Density, Elongation and Super-Str could be achieved via polymorph). That still leaves about 45 more effects he can do.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You're very welcome (took me about an hour and a half to do that!)... but it doesn't, really. It shows you can get most of those effects, either as direct 'spells' or by using polymorph (or possibly alter self) on himself to turn into some form that has the ability. Most of the things I pointed out that have no real D&D equivalent -- the things like Plasma Control or Radiation Control -- are just types of Blast. The only ten effects he absolutely cannot get are Anatomic Separation, Density, Elongation, Healing, Immovable, Luck Control, Quickness, Space Travel, Super-Strength, and Telekinesis (though Density, Elongation and Super-Str could be achieved via polymorph). That still leaves about 45 more effects he can do.

While your initial list was thorough, your list of what 'could not be achieved' down here was not. You didn't list several that were 'not til 5th' or such on your list just now of what could not be achieved, plus ones like Corrosion and Datalink. Also, and I didn't want to lead with this of course, while most of those were good matches, there are a few that I think you definitely matched to the wrong power (For instance, Lesser Geas is not Domination at all--it's just a Triggered Drain if they don't do it; only the Drain actually discourages them from not ignoring the Geas). And in most of the categories where the answer wasn't 'definitely not', it was more like 'maybe one very specific partial version of this'. First example that comes to my head--I wouldn't say that Insubstantial was covered by this--it has Insubstantial 2, but not any of the others.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Totally separate issue--Variable inside a Variable: Personally, I see no reason why anyone wouldn't allow it (unlike alts within alts, which I would totally allow, but I see the reason someone might not want to). It's massively massively ineffecient for the player (paying for Variable on the ranks inside the inner power twice!). It's not like nested alternates where you save points--you spend points bigtime here.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Corrosion isn't an effect, it's Drain Toughness with Linked Strike.

Datalink isn't an effect, it's Communication (radio). (And one almost no spell-slinger except Technomages use anyway, for descriptor/flavor reasons.)

Lesser Geas most definitely is Mind Control (Conscious Mind Control, at that), since it's an Enchantment (Compulsion) effect that makes someone do something (or not do something); anything the caster desires short of obviously self-destructive acts. If they're prevented from obeying, that's when the Drain comes into effect. Not "if they choose not to do obey," it's "if they're prevented from obeying".

 

[Rystil Arden]

Corrosion isn't an effect, it's Drain Toughness with Linked Strike.

Datalink isn't an effect, it's Communication (radio). (And one almost no spell-slinger except Technomages use anyway, for descriptor/flavor reasons.)

Lesser Geas most definitely is Mind Control (Conscious Mind Control, at that), since it's an Enchantment (Compulsion) effect that makes someone do something (or not do something); anything the caster desires short of obviously self-destructive acts. If they're prevented from obeying, that's when the Drain comes into effect. Not "if they choose not to do obey," it's "if they're prevented from obeying".

That's poor wording on the part of the writer of that description of Lesser Geas. Check regular geas.

"Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest."

As for the rest, it strikes me that even if it allowed for very limited uses of each power, it would still be limiting. I think you're ignoring a huge swathe of powers that it prevents.

Let's just look at a much simpler case to see what I mean. Let's say I had a power called Infinity Blast, a Variable Blast. It can do any kind of Blast (and I can decide as a free action). Any shape, any extra I need, and power feat, anything. Now I limit Infinity Blast so that it can only do 4th-level or lower spells in the D&D PH. That's a massive limit! And we're looking at that across the board.

I mean, I'd be happier to have it with the D&D spells limit because I think it fits the flavour of the character much better, but if you absolutely insist that it isn't a flaw (which I have to say would be the most ridiculous decision I've seen yet on LS. While I disagree with quite a few of the decisions of the new regime, I don't find any of the decisions ridiculous and I can understand why they were pursued), I can just not put that in there and keep my Variable Magic without those limits.

 

[Victor_Von]

Yep, plus the 3.5 spells are online for free at d20srd. Thanks so much HoV for that list!--I think it shows that this is a huge limit vis-a-vis Variable without that limit.

@rgordona--Add to the SRD availability the most important point, which is that unless the GM is hyper-paranoid it really doesn't matter if the GM knows the entire list of D&D spells. rgordona, the reason why earlier I said that you are sometimes like LS's Simon Cowell is that your decisions always seem to be based on the assumption that players, given the opportunity to not be under total and absolute control, are going to mug you or something. In a Supers game, it is crucial to give the players leeway and trust them. It isn't like D&D where the GM generally needs to keep a hard control of all the rules (in the M&M book, it specifically says that it's crucial to learn when to say yes). I've noticed that in Daylight Robbery--it would be a great quality to have for a D&D GM, but it may actually be working slightly cross-purpose for you in M&M. There are tons of times where it doesn't matter if the GM knows exactly what the player's doing is as long as the player does--what about acharacter who channeled mythic archetypes but was limited to only Aztec gods, and the GM doesn't know the Aztec gods? A character with super-science skills in an area where the player is actually a real-world science expert and the GM isn't. A character who was possessed by minor characters from Shakespeare plays and the GM doesn't know Shakespeare well. Etc, etc.

Speaking as a player, I have to disagree with this logic. First off, some players do abuse things if you give them a chance. I'd almost go with 'most players' on this one, but maybe that's just my gloomy perspective on human nature-- "Man want to WIN!" to misquote Saul Bellow. Online the trust level is lower than with someone you've gamed with for years, too. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that trust is earned with time and experience.

Working knowledge of an entirely different game system-- one that can be incredibly technical, and has its own set of abuses and exploits-- is very different than working knowledge of Comic Book Science, which isn't real world quantum physics but has a loose logic of its own.

And how is channeling a given pantheon of freaking GODS a limitation? They're gods. A pantheon tends to cover everything that matters to a given society. I'm not saying it wouldn't be interesting to see a shapeshifter who jumps from Qetzocoatl to Tlaloc to Xipe Topec, but I'd have to know what those forms DO before even contemplating approval.

And I'm not even a GM.

A GM has to know what he's getting into to approve something, and has to have the final word on what is or isn't balanced. That doesn't vary between gaming systems. I'm not saying players shouldn't push and try new things, but there's nothing wrong with a GM who keeps the word 'no' handy. I'd prefer it to finding myself in a broken campaign where everyone's overpowered and there are no challenges.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Speaking as a player, I have to disagree with this logic. First off, some players do abuse things if you give them a chance. I'd almost go with 'most players' on this one, but maybe that's just my gloomy perspective on human nature-- "Man want to WIN!" to misquote Saul Bellow. Online the trust level is lower than with someone you've gamed with for years, too. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that trust is earned with time and experience.

Working knowledge of an entirely different game system-- one that can be incredibly technical, and has its own set of abuses and exploits-- is very different than working knowledge of Comic Book Science, which isn't real world quantum physics but has a loose logic of its own.

And how is channeling a given pantheon of freaking GODS a limitation? They're gods. A pantheon tends to cover everything that matters to a given society. I'm not saying it wouldn't be interesting to see a shapeshifter who jumps from Qetzocoatl to Tlaloc to Xipe Topec, but I'd have to know what those forms DO before even contemplating approval.

And I'm not even a GM.

A GM has to know what he's getting into to approve something, and has to have the final word on what is or isn't balanced. That doesn't vary between gaming systems. I'm not saying players shouldn't push and try new things, but there's nothing wrong with a GM who keeps the word 'no' handy. I'd prefer it to finding myself in a broken campaign where everyone's overpowered and there are no challenges.

Well, admittedly, the book does also say you have to know when to say no. As to Aztec gods, it isn't a limitation so much as a category (excuse the term limited) for Shapeshift, but a player could always make up a fake Aztec god. If I described the actual info known about Huitzilopachtli and then described a fake god, I bet I could trick around 50% of subjects in a double-blind experiment into thinking that the fake one was the real Aztec god when asked. Of course, info on the Aztec gods is fully available on the internet. Of course, so are the SRD spells for D&D.

As to the requirement of full knowledge of the game system, I would say that's a canard considering the nature of Mutants and Masterminds. If this was Feng Shui or Risus, maybe, but the correlation between the two systems is high, and it would be up to the player to fit the spell into M&M anyway, so the GM doesn't need to have to figure that out.

And as to players/abuse/etc, such a concept can often be true in D&D, and it's why D&D sometimes need a strict hardline Rules-as-Written GM, but in M&M, the game is intentionally looser to give you the power to create something cool. By default, this carries the necessary caveat that it also gives the power to abuse. It's rather easy to make a really lame and unfun character (Nukleor, the man who blows up the planet every round or Light-Bright, the hero who fills all of North America with blinding light except for herself, etc). Trust is important. If you lose that and you start getting into strict enforcement, you lose a lot of the ability to create cool things, and you change the entire tone of the game. It can cause the game to slow to a crawl. When I've run M&M in real life, it has been a smashing success when I blatantly copied from a far superior GM than myself and answered almost every question of "Can I...X?" with "Sure, but it'll cost you a Hero Point / Extra Effort".

Since face-to-face is different, I'd bet you actually could make it work with a totalitarian GM. But PbP is different. You need momentum or the game will slow and die. Mother-may-I with the GM also hurts, particularly when the GM and player have different posting schedules.

A good example of this--the players are excited about the game and want it to push forward, but the GM is kind of slow, so the players try to do something to help the game go forward

Player A: Oh crap! Dr. Dark? I use my datalink to send an IM to Player B.
Player B: Whoah, cool! I'm going to use Super Speed to come help Player A. I'll try to make a Sonic Boom to distract Dr. Dark.
Player A: Good idea! If I get the chance, I'm going to use Phoenix Pinions on him.

Now, there are several GM responses. Here's the response from the GM that I'll call the 'good' response for PbP (good because it's going to keep pace and momentum and make the game exciting)

GM: Alright, cool. B, you normally don't have the Sonic Boom power feat on your Super Speed, so you're now Fatigued, but Dr. Dark is totally confused, and A, you get a chance to take an action against him, using Phoenix Pinions and engulfing him in a rain of fiery arrows. B, you can spend a hero point to recover

Now the bad response (assume that the GM is technically correct about everything he says)

GM: Yeah, A. Actually I've been looking at your character sheet, and you can't use your Datalink because there aren't any computers close enough. And B, although it might seem like you can get there in 1 round, I've been reading ATT, and according to Steve Kenson, the official interpretation of your Super Speed states that you would actually take 2 hours to get there. Check this link for the explanation of why. Also, you can't do a Sonic Boom because you don't have that power. You could technically add a power feat with extra effort, but that's subject to my approval, so I have to think about it, though I'm leaning towards no. Also, A, I don't understand how your Phoenix Pinions is supposed to work. I think you paid for a power feat when you should have paid for an extra here, and the way you linked it is weird. Is it supposed to unleash fiery energy from the legendary phoenix in the form of a hail of fiery pinions? I don't see the mystic descriptor, and you have it listed for the wrong shape type, I think. Shouldn't it also be a slow projectile? A, let's pause while you explain it to me and we work out exactly how the power should be costed. Also, let's rewind back to when Dr. Dark appeared because none of that stuff you did could actually happen.


Just to say, as a random aside, Raylis has shown himself to be an excellent example of the first style of GM. As far as PbP M&M GMing goes, he is the best I've seen yet on this forum (and clearly better than me too!)

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Oh, I see what you thought. No, no, you have it backwards. (also I left out "from the PHB" in that one post, though I've mentioned it before in regards to Martin)

I don't want Vancian style. I want his casting to be very M&M style on the use, but D&D style on the effects.

I have to ask... why? I mean, if it's a case of Martin "doing what he knows" (because that's the only -- or the best -- way his mind can channel his innate magical energies/the energies of Merlin's Staff), then shouldn't he be limited not just in effect but also in method? Or, to flip it around, if he's not limited in method, why is he limited in effect?

 

[Rystil Arden]

I have to ask... why? I mean, if it's a case of Martin "doing what he knows" (because that's the only -- or the best -- way his mind can channel his innate magical energies/the energies of Merlin's Staff), then shouldn't he be limited not just in effect but also in method? Or, to flip it around, if he's not limited in method, why is he limited in effect?

Why did I initially not do it or why did I dismiss the example you gave?

For the initial stage, it was quite simple--it doesn't fit my vision of Martin. He doesn't get his power that way. He knows it, too. He's learned how to get his power, but he just isn't advanced enough to create or design his own spells, so he has relied on D&D as his crutch.

For why I'm not considering yours, the most important thing is still that it doesn't fit my vision of Martin. But there's the added complication that you totally undercosted some of the things you put on there and added some things that aren't even related to D&D, and since I know I'm not going to use it anyway, I'd really rather not get into a debate about those costs, especially since I do appreciate that you went to the trouble of designing it.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

For why I'm not considering yours, the most important thing is still that it doesn't fit my vision of Martin. But there's the added complication that you totally undercosted some of the things you put on there and added some things that aren't even related to D&D, and since I know I'm not going to use it anyway, I'd really rather not get into a debate about those costs, especially since I do appreciate that you went to the trouble of designing it.

No trouble since I didn't design it, I copied it from some D&D builds done by folks over at the Atomic Think Tank.

How are some parts undercosted, and what there isn't related to D&D? (Yeah, I'll readily admit it's not a perfect fit, but it's the closest I've seen done.)