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Magic Item Hate

What aspect of magic items do you hate the most?

  • Boring (This is a +1 sword)

    Votes: 212 54.2%
  • Weak (It only gives a +1 bonus)

    Votes: 47 12.0%
  • Powerful (It ignores DR/magic completely)

    Votes: 31 7.9%
  • Common (Every NPC has a +1 sword)

    Votes: 233 59.6%
  • Glut (The PCs also have a +1 bow, +1 armor, +1 shield, +1 ring, +1 cloak, +1 amulet ...)

    Votes: 286 73.1%
  • Manufacture (The PCs can make a +1 sword)

    Votes: 43 11.0%
  • Trade (The PCs can buy or sell a +1 sword)

    Votes: 104 26.6%
  • Need (The PCs must have +1 swords)

    Votes: 258 66.0%
  • Entitlement (The players expect to get +1 swords)

    Votes: 168 43.0%
  • Others (Please specify)

    Votes: 16 4.1%

Kraydak

First Post
Ulrick said:
I can see somebody selling a minor magic item like a potion or a scroll, but not a permanent item--even a +1 weapon, unless they were desperate and needed the money or the item has some drawback.

*blink*
Well, if your players are selling magic items, you can ask them why they are doing it. The justifications they have will also hold for NPCs... I think the fact that once you have a +2 sword, your first +1 sword have some value as a backup, but the second +1 isn't worth the encumbrance carrying it around might have something to do with it.
 

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Kurotowa

Legend
I voted for Boring, Common, and Need. Like several others have mentioned, I see them all as aspects of the same problem. I think that Andy Collins described it best in his Design & Development piece on the MIC about the Big Six items that are effectively required for every PC.

I did a lot of PbP gaming this year, making a lot of new PCs as the games came and went, and my experience holds up to what he says there. Every PC needs AC boosters (since AC is entirely gear dependent), a magic weapon, an ability booster for their key stat, and a Cloak/Vest of Resistance to keep their saves high enough. After all that you really don't have a lot of extra gold left over for anything more interesting, or that even does anything besides provide a passive boost to your PC's numbers.

Having that changed is one of the things I'm really looking forward to in 4e.
 

Doug McCrae said:
That takes a lot of effort though. Which DRs do you change, and by how much? Keep DR/cold iron? Surely werewolves must still have DR/silver for flavour reasons? How about adamantite? What about demons and devils? Lots of decisions to be made.

And that's not all. Melee characters need those boosts to their combat stats - AC, especially, also to hit, damage and hit points. Save DCs assume PCs have cloaks of resistance and stat boosters. Mess with that and the whole CR system is thrown out of whack. Casters benefit disproportionately from low magic because they still have it and the fighter doesn't. Spells like Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon become even more powerful than they were. Bull's Strength and the like remain powerful even at higher levels. Clerics and druids will dominate even more than they did before.

Yes this can all be fixed but you're practically having to write a new game to do so. You'd be better off running Iron Heroes or Conan d20 where the work has already been done.

Ah, this is where you and I part company (in a very amiable fashion :) ). I threw out the CR system the moment I started gaming with 3E. I assigned XP based on how fast I wanted PCs to level, not some mathematical equation developed in the dungeons of Seattle.

The CR guidelines got in the way for me, so they got dropped. The first rule as the DM, for me anyway, is to always cheat :) . I have a DM screen for good reason, it allows me to adjust combats on the fly.

Example: I'm throwing werewolves at the party. If the encounter is meant to warn the PCs about how little they know about werewolves, I would really play up the DR side of the encounter. After being thrashed and escaping (oh, the clouds are coming to cover the full moon, maybe the werewolves are worried about being mere humans again), I would expect that the PC would spend some time researching the lore of their opponents. Somewhere not too far away, they are going to find the answers they need to defeat their opponents (oh, that silversmith who was kidnapped earlier was important, lets go rescue him).

This, in my mind, is a great use of the DR system currently in place. Make the DR element have some good built in lore, allow the PCs to be defeated by their lack of knowledge, then provide a good side plot to obtain the items of lore needed to overcome this challenge. Bundled nicely in that DR 15/Silver is a great little story arc of defeating the party, needing to do some research, rescuing the silversmith, and then defeating the werewolves.

The DR didn't change, I just made sure that the DR didn't kill them by designing an out for your monsters in the fight. The DR was used to challenge the PC ; win with their minds, not with their arms. Experience, Learn, Overcome!
End Example

As for the Melee characters need those stat increases, I again say (in the nicest way possible) hog wash. Its the DM's job to make the encounters right for the players. Making the encounters "right" involves two fronts for me; a story telling side (the why) and a combat side (the where).

The Why: The right encounter always advances the story. It could be the form of resolving character backstory, showing that the dungeon / lost Island is dangerous, harassing the PCs into action, or the final showdown with the dragon that has been terrorizing your PCs for the last 10 sessions. As a DM, its my job to make sure that every encounter does something to advance the story of the game I am running.

The Where: The combat element is trickier and always challenges my creativity as a DM. For me, this involves setting the individual elements of the fight. Where is the fight taking place; a burning inn, a sinking ship, a lost island, a moving wagon. The location of the fight should never be a 30 x 40 flat room with 4 walls and 2 doors. This is just not exciting. A fight does not take place in a vacuum, and its my job to create the where of the fight just as much as the why of the fight; are their innocent bystanders standing by, is there a doomsday clock counting down, or is there some neutral third party that wants to eat both sides.

If I, as the DM, can resolve the why and there where of the encounter, I've done my job. The numbers will fall into place. I'll know what the fighter and the rogue have (roughly) for their chance to hit. I'll know (roughly) the damage output of the mage when she goes all out. I'll know how much healing might be needed for the encounter (if any at all).

If I know these things, then the number of +X items, the random bonuses to strength, AC, or saves become meaningless. Spells like greater magical weapon and bull's strength will still matter, great! My wizard will love making sure that the 2nd and 3rd level spells in her list will be put to good use.
 

drothgery

First Post
Kraydak said:
*blink*
Well, if your players are selling magic items, you can ask them why they are doing it. The justifications they have will also hold for NPCs... I think the fact that once you have a +2 sword, your first +1 sword have some value as a backup, but the second +1 isn't worth the encumbrance carrying it around might have something to do with it.

And because if you've spent a lot of character resources on becoming an axe master, a +1 sword isn't all that useful to you; you'll fight worse with a +1 sword than you would with a normal axe.
 

I wondered why 3.x never had some kind of spell or feat that would let a PC "strip" extra +s and special abilities from magic items and then add them to your favorite weapon or armor or whatever.

Dude's specialized in battle axe, he's got an axe +1, but ends up finding a longsword +1 and another one that's +1 and flames on command. He gets his wizard friend to rip the power off of the two swords and gets a +3 axe that flames, or something.
 

Kraydak

First Post
Prince of Happiness said:
I wondered why 3.x never had some kind of spell or feat that would let a PC "strip" extra +s and special abilities from magic items and then add them to your favorite weapon or armor or whatever.

Dude's specialized in battle axe, he's got an axe +1, but ends up finding a longsword +1 and another one that's +1 and flames on command. He gets his wizard friend to rip the power off of the two swords and gets a +3 axe that flames, or something.

They did. Its called "community gp limit". It doesn't even need a wizard friend...
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Alaxk Knight of Galt said:
Nifft, I think your* slightly missing the point. What Treebore was saying is that as DM, you do have total freedom from those assumptions
Trust me, I do know a little bit about modifying the game -- and the unintended consequences that can result therefrom. :)

I'm also a bit familiar with the work required to re-write the game. Not everyone has that kind of time, let alone motivation, and that's before we add in the math pre-requisites.

While it's technically true that everyone can become a great DM, and every great DM can re-write the game -- it's not a terribly useful assertion. I don't know what kind of free time you personally have, but you should understand that not everyone has a lot of it.

Alaxk Knight of Galt said:
In the end, the DM and Players make the game. The game system can only get in the way.
If your system is getting in your way, then ditch it. If you have a better one. Or if you have the drive, time, energy and mathematical background to do so, then write a better one.

For many of us, D&D 3.5e was pretty good. There are places we'd like to see it improve. This is one of those places. If WotC can fix this, their system will be less in my way. And this will make me happier to use it.

Cheers, -- N

*) You mean "you're".
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Alaxk Knight of Galt said:
Bundled nicely in that DR 15/Silver is a great little story arc of defeating the party, needing to do some research, rescuing the silversmith, and then defeating the werewolves.
Or a story about how casters > non-casters. DR 15/silver hoses the melee guys but does nothing to stop spells.
If I know these things, then the number of +X items, the random bonuses to strength, AC, or saves become meaningless.
I think I get the picture. You confused me earlier by talking about changing DR numbers to suit a low magic game. That made me think you care about the rules when in fact you don't. You ignore them.

I would strongly suggest you have a look at Amber or something similar. D&D 3e is probably the worst fit for your GMing style possible. Any rules-lite game, of which there are a great many, would also be better.
 

AllisterH

First Post
Doug McCrae said:
That takes a lot of effort though. Which DRs do you change, and by how much? Keep DR/cold iron? Surely werewolves must still have DR/silver for flavour reasons? How about adamantite? What about demons and devils? Lots of decisions to be made.

And that's not all. Melee characters need those boosts to their combat stats - AC, especially, also to hit, damage and hit points. Save DCs assume PCs have cloaks of resistance and stat boosters. Mess with that and the whole CR system is thrown out of whack. Casters benefit disproportionately from low magic because they still have it and the fighter doesn't. Spells like Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon become even more powerful than they were. Bull's Strength and the like remain powerful even at higher levels. Clerics and druids will dominate even more than they did before.

Yes this can all be fixed but you're practically having to write a new game to do so. You'd be better off running Iron Heroes or Conan d20 where the work has already been done.


THANK YOU,

In the whole rush to crap on magic items, people tend to forget the REAL problem. Its not the magic items themselves, its the fact that PC are expected to wield magic.

Play Iron Heroes or Conan where players can't be wizards/clerics and pretty much EVERY damn magic item gripe will be fixed yet I haven't heard of many people willing to say D&D should be like Conan especially given that the game originally stated with two Magic Using classes to the one non magic using class.

Why do you think people call Mord's Disjunction a melee killer? Strip any level wizard of his magic gear in any edition and all you do is change how long it takes him to be effective and how long he STAYS effective (pretty much all the magic items duplicate spells thus said wizard just needs to cast them and he can't last as long as permanent magic items).

Strip the equivalent level fighter and he's hosed. Yet at the same time, the solution of making the fighter more inherently power-based also s frowned on.
 


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