Magic Item Levels

[Piratecat]

Yeah, you're screwed. In 4e, if your DM likes this style of play (which is fine), they should just give you a flat +1 to hit and to your defenses every five levels. Then they can hand out whatever items they like (removing the pluses to hit and to defenses, and just keeping the effects) with no worry, because you'll still be able to fight effectively. 4e math is predicated on these bonuses, and characters without them will be really ineffective by mid-levels.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am here to defend the DM:

It is a legit game style and it can work easily with D&D4e

You can:

- use lower level monsters
- give inherent bonuses
- give magic item treshold bonuses (the same as inherent, but a little bit later IIRC)
- use fewer monsters (not recommended)

to compensate less xp from monsters, you give out more RP XP

What is your profit?

- Magic is not just a tool, only to keep up with the monsters but something which makes you more powerful.
- You can longer stay in the same monster level range and characters really feel that they improved their skills, when a single orc is not such a big threat anymore.

If you give ou exactly the right magic items at the right level, there is nothing magical about a magic weapon. The level of the monsters is just to help the DM to recognize what an average equipped party can wipe the floor with. If your party is "underequipped" just use lower level foes. It can have its merits.

Sending you against too high level monsters like your DM does however sounds no fun as he sends overleveled fos against underequipped parties which IMHO doesn´t match.

If however one of your characters is a wielder of the only +6 armor your party possesses, and another one carries a +6 bow, your party can tank and kill those brutes...

Another thing could have been the DM thinking along the lines of: Te PCs see that there are two mages having summoned 2 big scary monsters, maybe we should better RUN not fight.
OR maybe SURRENDER and look what happens.
OR break the summoning bonds somerhow so those elites turn against the enemies...

I don´t know your DM, so i don´t know what he thougt, but there can be fights the PCs are not expected to win by brute force... maybe he sits at home freaking out, why his players ignored all his hints that this fight was not meant to be fought...

IMHO some of you take those Item and Monster Levels too seriously... actually as a DM i would not be very pleased if a player tells me that they were not expected to fight against monster XX because it is too high level... I would just ask him why he didn´t surrender then or run away or look at the surrounding...

---> giant on a bridge:

-> fighter: I use my sword and cut the rope
-> barbarian: I cut the second rope

-> fight won, no casualities...

It is easy to blame the GM for a bad setup, but players screw up so often...

 

[Benlo]

If magic is so rare, incredibly tough monsters ought to be, too. If you're facing, say, an Elder dragon and no one has any decent magic weapons, your DM might need to rethink their argument to something a little less flimsy.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

---> giant on a bridge:

-> fighter: I use my sword and cut the rope
-> barbarian: I cut the second rope

-> fight won, no casualities...

That's great, if you don't need to cross the bridge. Of course, that's partially up to the DM too.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

I am here to defend the DM:

<snipped>

Sending you against too high level monsters like your DM does however sounds no fun as he sends overleveled fos against underequipped parties which IMHO doesn´t match.

If however one of your characters is a wielder of the only +6 armor your party possesses, and another one carries a +6 bow, your party can tank and kill those brutes...

I think over half of our party has one each +3 item (in my case its my +3 Craghammer) and the other items we have are all +2's or less. No one has a +4 item, let alone a +6.

Another thing could have been the DM thinking along the lines of: Te PCs see that there are two mages having summoned 2 big scary monsters, maybe we should better RUN not fight.
OR maybe SURRENDER and look what happens.
OR break the summoning bonds somerhow so those elites turn against the enemies...

At the time, our goal was to catch up with a thief who had stolen a book that had the key to opening up all the magical defenses of Everlun, and recover it - he has a 5 day headstart on us.

After the session, in our e-mail list, the DM said the monsters obective was to kill us outright or capture us, because the thief knows we are on his trail and he has targeted us.

It is easy to blame the GM for a bad setup, but players screw up so often...

No doubt.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If their objective was killing you outright i believe he was using too strong monsters... if he was serious with capturing you (or just scare you away), then the fight was about right.

It has a lot to do with presenting options as a DM and beeing creative as a PC. It has much to do with saying yes and rewarding good ideas. As a player it has a lot to do with "abusing powers by using the enviroment etc..." and not "by abusing powers by finding unintended synergies between feats".
If you allow PCs to increase their power level by beeing creative, you can use less magic items.

 

[perseus.]

If their objective was killing you outright i believe he was using too strong monsters... if he was serious with capturing you (or just scare you away), then the fight was about right.

It has a lot to do with presenting options as a DM and beeing creative as a PC. It has much to do with saying yes and rewarding good ideas. As a player it has a lot to do with "abusing powers by using the enviroment etc..." and not "by abusing powers by finding unintended synergies between feats".
If you allow PCs to increase their power level by beeing creative, you can use less magic items.

I agree, if your DM isn't giving out magical items to your level I'm assuming he has a reason for it. If his reason is really just despite you for complaining about not getting any gear then find a new DM.

But if you're just looking for a hack n slash game with no RP and finding maxed out armor/weapons/items all the time, then I suggest you start playing WoW.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yeah, you're screwed. In 4e, if your DM likes this style of play (which is fine), they should just give you a flat +1 to hit and to your defenses every five levels. Then they can hand out whatever items they like (removing the pluses to hit and to defenses, and just keeping the effects) with no worry, because you'll still be able to fight effectively. 4e math is predicated on these bonuses, and characters without them will be really ineffective by mid-levels.

I think 'screwed' is a bit harsh. A level 30 character without items is 6 points behind the 8-ball on all defenses and attacks. There's more than a 6 point variance between the strongest and weakest defense on many monsters, and if you've got full access to the list of surge-less healing that exists, you can still do quite well.

Without knowing the specific creatures you were up against, it's hard to tell whether your DM is out to get you or not. If the 19 brutes fading after 5 rounds was always the plan, then it's obvious the enounter was pretty accurately pitched.

That said, it sounds like your group are getting bored of lootlessness. Acquisition of gear is a big part of the enjoyment of D&D. You might want to use this as your arguing point.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think 'screwed' is a bit harsh. A level 30 character without items is 6 points behind the 8-ball on all defenses and attacks.

That DOES mean 30% less chance to accomplish anything in this game.

While some defenses are lower than others, that doesn't make a difference to AC attackers, nor does it really change the basic math that much. Instead of 'exploit weakness to win' it's 'find weakness or fail' which is not the spirit of 4e.

 

[perseus.]

That DOES mean 30% less chance to accomplish anything in this game.

While some defenses are lower than others, that doesn't make a difference to AC attackers, nor does it really change the basic math that much. Instead of 'exploit weakness to win' it's 'find weakness or fail' which is not the spirit of 4e.

It's like changing the difficulty level from Medium to Hard, I say it depends on what kind of challenge you're looking for.

And you'll at least have some magic armor/weapons, so you're probably not going to be a full 6 points behind.

All in all, everyone has plays the game a little different, just try to have fun!